Tellor Update | The Decentralized Oracle for DeFi | Nick Fett CTO | BlockchainBrad | Crypto Startup

by birtanpublished on August 16, 2020

Hello it's brad laurie your blockchain brad and today i am very honored to speak with nick fett he is one of the key members of teller and this is a special interview it's the first one for 2020 for me and i've specifically chosen teller because

I sincerely do believe in decentralized oracles for real use case nick thank you very much for being here happy beer brad likewise mate now i've taken the tie off because i really do want to just

Explore everything about what you've been doing all the updates nick but before we do i just want to explain to all the viewers i have invested in teller i haven't invested much but i am about

Transparency just like a blockchain so it is important you guys know that this is completely free in every way and i will not be doing any paid sponsorships for teller now or later so nick let's clear

This up let's explain to the people exactly why we need oracles and if you really want to go into it just a refresher of what an arab oracle does

Sure um so kind of the 101 for an oracle uh blockchains in general so ethereum is the main smart contract platform it is self-contained so a any smart contract platform it can't speak to the real

World or as we call it so like if you have a smart contract that needs the price of bitcoin on an exchange or say the price of oil or the weather there's no way to call or call an api of an exchange you actually have to have somebody manually input it in there so what this does is this severely limits smart contracts

So this means that any smart contract on ethereum can only refer to events happening on ethereum so we actually stumbled upon the oracle problem in our past startup we were building

Out axia sodexia was a derivatives protocol on ethereum so basically you can bet on the price of something say that you can bet on the price of the s p 500. um what you realized is that we would

Actually have to manually enter the price of the s p 500 at the end of these contracts and that that's sort of a no-go because that means we're the centralized party now that it's to say who wins and loses

So it it isn't doesn't quite pass the censorship resistance test so you need a decentralized oracle which is a decentralized way to go get say the price yes right and if we've talked about this

At length before about that keyword of decentralization often it's thrown around quite loosely throughout the uh the blockchain domain as well but you really do genuinely stand for

Decentralized oracles so can we just touch on that a bit more dig a bit deeper and understand that in the context of other oracles that do exist both you know

Beyond blockchain and within the crypto arena uh sure so there's you know there's like a wide spectrum of decentralization when it comes to oracles

So like you you could assume that you know in our example of you need somebody to place the s p 500 price on chain um there's a whole bunch of different approaches so that the first way is the

Completely centralized thing where i personally enter in the price of the s p 500 that is completely centralized you can have a slightly slightly decentralized one uh say maybe you me um

And some other guy that we know um we all the three of us will enter the price and it'll take the median right we'll get better exactly so like that that's like the

Maker so it's better than just one party you know you have to corrupt a majority of those people in order to break the median but if they're known um it's sort of you know this is i like to call it like

The eos model of oracles where you have you know this like known delegated proof of stake type system um and there's other methods as well uh so like uh one other decentralized

Type you could do is say like an auger so like you could just create like a prediction market for the price of the s p 500 and auger and it would eventually you know you could derive a price from that

Right and nick we've seen the likes of for example gnosis orga you've been affiliated with them for a while now since berlin and i have been following along a lot of your content but what is interesting too

Is that um you see the likes of for example chain link and then you see and they're obviously very well known in this space you talked about staking in relation to white listing there even

And if you even go all the way back to oracle eyes for example those services are all out there but the one big thing that they don't have many of them anyway is that push for decentralization and the

Proof behind it that the code and the approach and the monetary policy backs that plan so do you want to tell us a bit more about why you're so big on decentralization

Especially coming from that drives protocol that you're building with daxia so like kind of why we're big on decentralization i think it's just you know it sort of goes back to why you're building on a blockchain

In the first place um you know if you look at say a bitcoin or an ethereum like what's the purpose of these systems like why do they exist and you know like sometimes you'll hear like oh or we're

Disintermediating or something like that we're making a more efficient system but that doesn't really pass like any sort of limited litmus test the big the big reason that these things are here is sort of

Censorship resistance these are things that can never be shut down um and that's the exciting piece about ethereum and bitcoin and that's why you need decentralization decentralization means

That nobody can shut this thing down um and that that to us is what we're grown after right so yeah um so i i think just building things on these

Networks that actually make sense you know if you're trying to build you know like we've all seen like you know like a ripple or something like that and it sort of struggles because it

Doesn't quite like is there a need for it or something is usually the question that you would go for like why a blockchain exactly and and mate you've also mentioned

You know in discussing the imperative decentralization that it's okay to have those admin keys you know in the back end and we've referenced you know many people in the space the the the techies

And i guess the educators you know also have been looking at c phi as perhaps you know one of the you know the the start point starting points for the movement of d5

We see a graduation towards decentralization as the ultimate goal we talked about in the last interview so do you think mate that you know really it's about reframing

Reconceptualizing finance enterprise um is the common goal d5 as opposed to the common proof right now yeah i i don't know if i can speak for the space as a whole

Um you know i think yeah like you know the big thing that you want to build are just things that make sense i think so whenever you're talking about like these admin keys and and things like where you just really

Have to remember now like a lot of d5 at the moment it is still really experimental um you know and that's fine like you can have these centralized pieces as we sort of build it out as we're

Experimenting with it but you you want to make sure that we really stay almost philosophically pure as we continue to move towards like the ultimate goal of

Decentralization because like you you're really never going to you see you see it a lot um whenever you whenever you're trying to build things in a decentralized way like i'm sure you've talked to a

Billion dap developers at the moment uh everyone's like oh man the ux is awful this is this is so hard uh and and that's usually whenever someone's like okay well we can make the ux so much better if we just

Centralize this piece um you know we'll just run it all in a database and just send proof to the blockchain or something like that and um and that's like sort of the achilles heel of the space is that we

Always shoehorn in these centralization pieces to to get to get more users and get involved right away it's tough and nick you must find it quite comical that there are so

Many startups out there professing to have degrees of decentralization when in fact perhaps they're just utilizing the merits of blockchain to you know create some sort of the boundaries

Right short term essentially so let's go back to you though um as i've publicly stated i am a huge supporter of tella for what you're trying to build and the imperative is there for oracles now you have a hybrid model and i'm not

Going to lie in it i like it and the reason is because you have the proof of work with the staking incentives for those miners can you tell us a bit more about why this is so

Hybrid and novel and important to the success of you of tele long term sure i mean it's all sort of um the reason the way that we built teller you know to explain for those who are

Listening first time is we have uh miners so you know we have a decentralized oracle and somebody can come to our system and say i want say the price of the s p 500 and

Then what we have is a system a decentralized network of miners so anybody can become one you what you do is you stake a thousand of our tokens and then you're allowed to compete at proof-of-work mining

And the first five miners who win that proof-of-work challenge so you know they're just guessing random numbers on their computer they get to say hey this was the s p 500 price

Um and then if any of them lied what happens is you anybody else can say hey he'd lied they submit what's called a dispute and then it gets put up to a vote whether or not

His tokens get slashed right so it's really simple kind of crypto economic principles that that underlie the system and um the reason that it sort of works is because

The re one of the big reasons we didn't want to use like a cure just like staking all the way was that if you have the folders of your token voting whether or not a dispute was correct

And the holders of your token also correspondingly the ones who get to say what the pieces of data are it you know you have like the same people entering the same data

Um so you know with i think you want like different people like and that's actually what we found about miners which is super cool is that miners are actually completely different people than

The people who like speculate and speak stake tokens or especially like participate in your governance protocol and i think you have this you have this big time with bitcoin for instance and ethereum you have like

The mining community which is proof of work and then you have like the developers and mistaking people uh exactly and the fact that you have sort of two competing parties fighting against each other almost is is

Actually a good thing for decentralization because it means one party can't really just go and like upgrade as they feel like it you have this you know

Sort of balance if you will yeah and nick you mentioned the one the 1000 trv that's the token for those who are wondering now there's been feedback from some members of the community and you do have

You know a community that's really focused on the technology um and some are saying well that might be a bit high for the average person trying to participate in mining what are your thoughts on that

Well not really at the moment so if you look at so like it's proof of work so you know you need like fpgas or really fast gpus to kind of compete at mining so like if you look at the amount of gpu

Processing power you're gonna have to put behind your proof of work miner um the stake is sort of you know fits with that amount um you know if you're just trying to stake

Ten dollars and you're wondering like you you know to compete a proof of work you have thousands of dollars worth of equipment sitting behind you anyway so you know and you want

You want it to be high like we we hope that everyone's just honest with it you know so having sort of that big stick that you can you can whack them with and slash is is really a powerful thing because it makes

The cost of breaks break that much higher exactly that sticking slashing is really important and if you have that active dispute system built in now it's active which is great to hear now one of the

Things that i really was fascinated by was the inflation cuts um the decrease decrease in the block reward as well nick i don't want to fomo this but the reality is that this is like a halving on steroids

Really even though it's longitudinal even though this is over a year um it's substantially more you know when you look at this from the five to one model so do you want to tell us a bit more about

The numbers the facts with regard to this plan yeah so what just it was sort of uh you know we we really we have some literature out there you can read that we rode and

We liked kind of the the constant issuance model so you know we don't have a max token supply or anything like that we like inflationary rewards and you want to continue doing it but when you

Started a zero token supply so say you started zero and you add one every minute um what happens is that if you add consistently over the same period of time like

Your inflation rate you know the amount that you had in the first year is the exact same that you had in the second year that means your inflation rate at the end of year one is going to be 100

Percent so 140 percent well we're only like you know seven months in now to our system so we're actually at like 140 percent inflation so like the monthly rewards are you know that we print

A whole lot of tokens every single month and it's uh that's really really high so there's basically little incentive for people to hold their token you know people even miners who have to stake you

Know if you don't assume a massive demand growth it's hard to sort of justify staking and locking up a thousand tokens because it might sort of go down in price and exactly

Your amount of numbers so this this was just a change so the change that we did we were going to reduce uh the inflation rate from 140 down to 17 over a year uh just to kind of get more in line with

Kind of traditional crypto inflation rates so i moved from 104 140 down to 17 as i understand it over the year nick that's going to reduce the block reward

From five to one over that time so you know looking at the math you know purely from a tech standpoint um surely that's going to attract a lot of attention uh for minors it's got to hopefully

Um yeah i mean that that's really the goal because you want you know if you think about what these block rewards are like whether it's in bitcoin or ethereum you're paying

Through inflation for something so like inflation is sort of a that that's what the holders pay so like inflationary rewards are basically the holders of your token paying for something because you're

Being penalized as a holder in order to pay for this and if it's the security of your system that's a good thing you want to pay for it you know and that that makes sense like you know if

They're doing a whole lot but paying them you know 140 a year to do this thing that they're securing uh it might not be worth it um especially if the holders aren't willing

To do that yeah and there's yeah go ahead no i was gonna say you know it's it's um it's definitely a very variable that you want to pay close attention to in any protocol

Um you know like if you look at so even bitcoin there's been a lot of talk over the past few months like about like well if bitcoin has when they eventually go to a zero block

Reward they're going to have security issues just because no will transaction fees be enough to sort of secure the network and then you you can look at another super

Interesting page which is actually synthetics who are actually really ramped up their inflation rates because they wanted to incentivize people to do things more um so they were using those inflationary

Rewards in other ways um so there's they're really powerful and it's one of the things that really excites me about the space is that people are actually playing around with

Inflationary rewards because i hope that that carries over to the real world too right so the model is still you know has inflation built in but disinflationary by design i guess you could you know i

Could argue but nick do you see also you know how rapidly this is going to drop i mean obviously you do you help design this and architect it but in the next six months there's quite a

Significant drop you know in that bell curve and then it sort of teeters off into a little bit more stable decline after that and it does go block to block in that 10 minute time as well as you mentioned so

Do you suspect that there's going to be a lot of attention brought on you just simply from the architecture from those amendments you've made regardless of higher speculation and the inadvertent attention you're

Going to get from people like me speaking about your utility and your imperative value yeah i mean well right now like you know the miners so if you assume like basically which we do

Have our for-profit miner so they they get the tokens and they dump them on the market so you know right now it's about 3 600 drb a day that they dump on the market um

If you reduce that uh you know by four-fifths uh you assume that the cell pressure is sort of really alleviated so you would think that you know somewhere along the line like you're

Going to get a little bit more attention because it the balance between the cell pressure and the by pressure changes right and that's all kicked in now as of march and once again this info is not for fomo but this is

Pragmatic this is about what teller's trying to do because they are all about trying to be real use case b to be they want to have more clients but this is the engine that's going to make that possible

That's why we're talking about this and let's explore um off-chain data off-chain price fees as well in the context of what you plan to do in the future with references to computation i mean there's a lot more scope for

Teller than just those off-chain price feeds as well in your roadmap yeah um so i think you know it basically is just creating the best sort of technology that we can create is really

Our goal and trying to find uh where the space needs it um you know they whenever you talk about like a decentralized oracle the big problem that you know we're very we admit that

The flaws in our current system um whenever you you request a price you know the classic example is like we've been using the s p 500 um if you have to use say like an api from

Some website now that's centralized all of a sudden because now you're relying on that website um that's a problem you don't want to have to rely on one website uh you want sort of people to sort of

Have discretion as far as what it is and you want to say either have your your miners manually input it so it's sort of robust to the api failing or you want to have you know things that we're looking at

Which other protocols have looked at as well which is sort of like you could even have a peer-to-peer network of people passing around price information um and these are exciting things that

You can do to to really take away any centralized point of failure here right well nick let's talk about that you know i'm going to dig a little bit when you start to hint those things

Sure i've been listening to your talk on uh edo or addo um the alliance decentralized oracles i've dug a bit deeper into it and had a look

Um it's clear from what brenda said the ceo that you're looking more at standardization you're looking at like a really holistic approach collaboratively with other um startups

Or other oracles particularly um names like chain link and zap have come up you know in those discussions you've had you've had uh youtube with some of those parties

So let's just get real about this i mean what is actually happening with the plans of for this um this standardization even on the github there's references to it yeah well the big thing so we have up on

Our github is the eip so we're trying to create a standard so there's there's no reason that you know let's say the main requested one for all oracles on ethereum is the eth us dollar price

You want the off chain etheos dollar price uh but right now if you want to go to chain link if you want to go to teller if you want to go to a band there are completely different

Ways that you have to request it so you have to know different ids you know if you're building a smart contract you have to it's a whole lot of work to build it in

Having a standard that says like hey i just want price for and then like some id that represents ethios dollar and you can go to any of the oracles you know their address

And it gives it to you that's what standardization is and that's going to actually enable it'll enable sort of plug-and-play of oracle's because you know like you can look at like other

Standards in the space like the erc20 standard really just skyrocketed it allowed you to create a deck because it allowed you to create all of these things that interact with the rc20s

Because you had a standard in place you know what functions you call and that's what we want to do with oracle's because right now you know one of the biggest there's two big things

That prevent us from kind of getting adopted by some of the larger protocols the first would be um well what if you as teller fail um you know we're going to we're going to

Build our whole code around you well now if if you wanted to build your code around us well yeah but you can just have in there some governance protocol you can just switch your address to chain link's address or

To the band's address or you know wit net when they're launched like it would be very simple to do and that would that makes it okay like now we now we

You know can take a risk on building this it's sort of all the same and the other piece that you can do if you you know the the sort of hesitation is like

So if you go talk to a maker or a very big protocol okay so we're guarding 50 million dollars a fund and teller has a market cap of 4 million like how how can you do this um and the

Answer is is that we actually can't you know like you could literally like if you wanted to break their protocol you could just buy up all the teller tokens yeah not you know obviously ignoring

Liquidity concerns but uh it's a valid concern um but let's say you had a standard in place you could easily take a median of all of the decentralized or centralized oracles out there

That prescribed to the standard say there's seven of them and you just take a median now all of a sudden your protocol is very robust now all of a sudden it can handle say a 50 million dollar

Valuation and i don't i just want to jump in i don't want to i don't want to phone my this point as well but when you start to talk about in this alliance and that's exactly what

The addo is um you'll be leaning against the the reputation the support of something like chain link now obviously there's a synergy there that it's not a con that you're not designed

To be competitors you are different by design um right and obviously you guys led from both yourself and brenda and even mike you're all looking at those um dare i say partnerships but

More so that uh collaboration so that you can consolidate and optimize each other as oracles how far are we into the adult you know what's the fact we're in phase

One now i'm suspecting but you know what kind of dialogue are you having now how serious is this getting yeah so our goals right now so it looks like probably by the end of this month we're gonna finalize the eip

Um you know now we're just having discussions about like okay well what should the you know symbol be for ethios dollar uh you know it's sort of these well we use this but we use this um so

Who gets to win like you know we're like we don't care like just pick a simple it doesn't matter it's going to be significant news over time nick because you're starting to get in ghana support by default because of this

Alliance obviously chain link is number one when it comes to oracle's in terms of being known in this space um their marketing team is absolutely second to none and they've really become

You know a prominent name in the space your association with them that's surely going to have a very positive effect on you as you move forward yeah i mean maybe um you know we

We we just think it's you know it's so early in the space like you know nobody's as far as decentralized oracle's being used it's it's you know the biggest competition we have

Now is like the centralized multi-sig or something you know it's it's just convincing people about the right thing to do and anything that we can do as a space just education wise and you

Know we feel really strong that if we can just educate people on why you need decentralization and why you actually need a decentralized oracle and give them options you know give them things that they can use then

Then we'll be fine in the long run and you know it's a lot of these founders they're good people too so it's it's great to you know catch up with them and really just just talk about some of the issues in

The oracle space and what we can do to just you know like when you're talking to all the other decentralized oracles it's like listen like we're all in a team against

The centralized oracles like we would rather you use any of us and we can compete with each other versus like just saying i'm going to input the price myself like that

That's our biggest competitor so you know just continuing to work together on that and then we can hash out to win exactly and it's like mike said in a recent interview or one of the um

Updates that you do for teller and i will plug that thank you for doing those updates and those longer discussions i have been watching them he said in one of the markets it really is those who espouse decentralization

Fundamentally and that is the truth because we're still so early in this space as you've both referenced and brenda also and it's a long road ahead to really make

To really get clients on board really get those that see that um customer switch come to fruition for teller but right now we're seeing a lot of people right around the globe

Take this seriously as not just a narrative anymore do you also see that in your role um you know as one of the leaders of tele but also with your background in the cftc

You know the blockchain space do you see more people taking decentralization set seriously in the institutional enterprise domain yeah i think people are starting to realize like you know you don't see as

Many blockchain prototypes these days um it's just you know people are starting to realize like what blockchains are good for what what they're not good for and especially with decentralization

Like you know you if at the end of 2017 you were talking about you know oracles and the need for decentralized oracles you were like a weirdo yeah but now it's very well known you

Know we've we've talked like just this week we've talked to like probably four or five different projects and they're starting to like they get it now like they're like

You know like hey like we're okay with a slower decent centralized oracle like this is you know we're happy that you guys are building something that makes sense and more and more people are coming around

To like just realize like you you saw like the b0x hack so like synthetics oracle attacks and people are realizing now like hey you know maybe we don't just want to chase the d5 protocol that just came out

Last week with the highest yield maybe we want to look into what's underneath um the hood and how the team feels about decentralization and those are those things are starting

To become more and more and i think it's just gonna yeah the ball is rolling and it's just gonna keep going for sure and nick i really like that you mentioned that you've been talking to some

Prospective clients but let's say um looking at discussing your value with them but not disclosing them and i'll explain why it's because obviously i've talked to a lot of ceos in the past

And there was a propensity in 2017 2017-18 for more of the shill approach you know the partnership as opposed to you know authentic partnerships that were meaningful now

You guys have always said from the start you're not going to do that and even now i'm not even going to press you on those partners because those days need to be gone we need to start making sure that the proof is in

The code the proof is in the functionality proof is in the utility and then once you come forth with an announcement surely that's going to be because it's legitimate it's real and it's not

Designed you know over a six month period of pump and shield and and crap that comes out just to optimize price yeah so you know we've you know most

Partnerships in the space are relatively meaningless and and we really just wanted to move away from that like you know we wanted to to do something where like listen like we'll we'll tell you who we're working

With when they're actually requesting data from teller when they're they're using us and but even then like you shouldn't you shouldn't rely on those you know that the people you know maybe if you're

Really interested in looking to trade or something like that but the real thing you should look at is is like hey how how much are people paying to use teller

You know similar like ethereum the thing that you know ethereum is like the example of where i would want to be eventually with teller like whenever like we used ethereum we didn't

Submit a partner you know ethereum didn't announce a partnership with teller that we're going to use ethereum we just used them uh so like whenever you become actually the standard you don't have partnership announcements and

You know like ideally like i would love like a whole boatload of anonymous protocols so we have no idea who they are uh sort of adding value to the network and creating

Security on the whole network um and we have you know we we don't know who they are and that would just be perfect nick i'd like to see that too i mean right now that's not the scenario

Because you're bootstrapped you know you've got haven't got a huge runway um and you're very frugal as you've mentioned so it's a long way to go for you but 100 agree i'd love it if there was no

Role for me even to try and be that educated it was just a given that the protocol is going to speak for itself now one of the things that i found really transparent about your team including

You is that you said that teller is expensive and it's slow in comparison to some others that's a bold statement it's brave and it's honest you want to explain to people what it

Actually means and you know whether or not you're concerned about that in the future as you start to come forth as a you know prominent oracle for

The blockchain sure well i think just you know the this goes back into what we were building originally um you know a lot of the oracle research was based around like listen we want to create the ability for any smart

Contract query any off-chain data um that's really really hard that like you know if you do that that solves like scaling and that's all it's like connecting blockchains um it's it's a much different thing like

Hey we want the a price of something every 10 minutes um it's slower but it's more secure and that's what you need built and you know the oracle space in general like

People haven't like i'm sure you've heard of the scalability trilogy of course um yeah so the general thing is is that you know you can't be both you know like fast secure and decentralized like

You you just can't and people get that with normal blockchain so like if somebody came out and said like hey i have um i have a new blockchain that has a million transactions per second

Like you don't even need to look at their code like you don't need to give them the time of day you just have to apologize because i interviewed some of those in the beginning i remember watching

Announcements i won't name a name but there was one well-respected i guess academic encoder he was on stage guaranteeing a million tps and you know we were seduced a little bit by some of

Those narratives thinking that scalability alone was an imperative but one thing you've always said nick is that the pragmatic approach has to take precedence and right now the blockchain

For example can do real stuff you don't need them one million tps what you need is something that you know is useful utilizing the capacity now so in comparison to other descent or so-called decentralized

Or c phi oracles let's say where do you sit because you are definitely in the secure security camp with your architecture but you've also referenced that there's flexibility for

Even improving scalability as it's needed in the future so let's you know get really clear about those sort of comparisons and contrasts with say for example chain link it is the buzzword we still have to

Talk about that so that we understand your value yeah so we're definitely chain link is one of those way more instant protocols or like you know the the big

Perfect centralized one is like oracle eyes you know it's like a two block time as far as getting back to you roughly um whereas we we have price updates every 10 minutes um so it's definitely slower and we're

Looking at so you know like the v2 we could actually reduce it down say you know by a factor of like five that's what we're looking at and it's still much slower but then at the same

Point it's um it's usable because that that's the big piece is that you know whatever you're building on these blockchains like we we always go back to what are you trying

To build on the blockchain like if you're trying to build a high frequency trading app that needs a instantaneous oracle like you probably shouldn't be built on a blockchain in the first place

Uh you know you're gonna have a bad time because as people have just realized like there's mining front running there's people who are looking at your oracle submissions and front running

Them um it just there there's a whole bunch of problems whenever you try and have these instantly instant finality on these systems right and you have reference finality before

In that it could actually be an impediment to uh the productivity of this in terms of authentic decentralized code and technology so do you see again let's just be real

Do you see chain link as something that is a little bit behind in terms of the decentralized you know agenda compared to you given that you're taking a very different approach with the

Security model yeah definitely so you know like i think they would even admit they're they're sort of not as decentralized as um they would hope to be you know and it's

Just um yeah like i would hope that they would it's always hard though you know like building as they are um because like in order to become decentralized they'll probably have to

Sort of reduce the you know throughput on their system and they'll sort of have to you know back to the the ux issue like they'll have to make the user

Experience worse um and that's always like a hard sell for customers whenever you tell them like you know listen we had this decentralized and now we have to take it away

Um it's much easier to just never have it in the first place in my mind like whenever you build and you start decentralized then then you can scale as sort of it goes you know the yeah i think you may have like

Read some of our articles on it we definitely have but i read your delusion on liquidity and a few other comments you made as well there were so many good points in them but

I wanted to ask you and be really candid about it because obviously you know we're not criticizing changing funny means they are very successful they have captured the attention of so many

And the imagination of the potential of oracles but when it comes to you you absolutely stand by the the value of d phi for the long term so why align with chain link for example in the edo when

It's going to be challenging for them to to make that switch into an authentic decentralized oracle yeah i mean we're not kicking anyone out of the auto it's it's not like that kind of thing um

We're just we're just happy to have people who are interested in you know wanting to join so it's yeah we're more friendly with everyone and you know we we

We meet up with jane link at basically all the events and we're always you know i like most of their team they're they're all great uh so yeah we're very friendly with them and

We hopefully we can work together because i think you know a lot of the a lot of even like even if there are projects that we we disagree with on some philosophically how we build pieces

Um if it's bringing money into research in the space or bringing you know eyes on the space and even if we can use them and and they're sort of you know their platforms to start educating some

Of these protocols and you know if they're the ones that are pushing out hey this is why we need decentralized oracles like that education in general is phenomenal i hope they continue to do it so

Right yeah i mean it's uh it's always great well the the link army they'll certainly uh be interested to hear that i think and also to know that you're not a competitor to

Them but more about trying to uplift the value oracles right across the board now bend is another one that you've talked about before we see the likes of zach come through

And others that are coming one of the things i found very interesting is that you have the backing of binance labs you have the backing of the ethereum foundation and on top of that make a doubt or make

A rather now that's a big deal that's almost like a triad of power um and more importantly connections next so are you leveraging all of that support to really

Get the attention of clients and customers yeah i mean that's probably the big thing that all of those projects or investors are really great for is just like

You know we're basically we we keep up the date on just every single project in the space and we call them all personally and uh try and uh you know talk to them because that that that sort of you know everyone

I think we've mentioned this on the past call too like you know whenever it comes to getting people to build on your oracle protocol you know it's not like one of these things where

You go advertise on reddit um it just say yeah or twitter it's just you don't know some do something some teams do but you don't yeah no but you know if you actually want people to build on your protocol

This is about building relationships with helping up and coming startups this is about building relationships with current you know protocols in the space and um you need introductions to them and

That's what these people are great for uh you know they they give us that sort of reputation and they they give us a lot of research help and mainly they give us hey look at this project coming up they

Need an oracle can you guys go talk to them um and they all do that and it's phenomenal um so really you have open door access let's be honest because

One thing i have learned in the space in my role is that having that access relationship with people in the media space in the vc space and exchange space is just absolutely vital do you find that the

Same for you and that you do need this to uplift your own platform yeah i mean like you know we we definitely noticed like you know after we got into finance labs for instance now

And now you get now a bunch of people return your emails uh you know we're pretty good salesman to begin with as far as like will you you know you're gonna reject us 50 times

And we're still going to email you until you take call with us um so but yeah it's it's really helpful whenever like you know the head of binance lab sends an email to a project hey you guys

Should talk to teller you know that that definitely helps uh and gives you a little bit of you know reputation going into the conversations and and that's just what it's about because

You know there's there's been a lot of projects that we've talked to that are you know up and coming startups and like they're just not fits for teller um you know they want some they what their priorities are

Aren't ours and you know we sorry we can't work with you um maybe someday you guys will be able to work with us but uh you know there's some projects that

Aren't fits and just trying to find the right ones that are fits is you have to really sort of work on educating them all and also um yeah talking with all of them building a relationship because it is a

Big deal to build an oracle into your protocol um you know you're asking that's sort of why like it takes a long time so you know i'm sure you've looked at projects like some projects are in

Dev mode for multiple years like if they decide to use your oracle like it's going to be six months to a year to implement like a code upgrade like you know you have to go through audits you have to do

Everything so it's a significant task for a lot of people so making sure that listen they're not just relying on something that they found online or an advertisement they're relying on like

This is nick and brendan mike like they're not going to let us down um and that that's what we want and and to finance labs credit again i just want to make it clear because i one of the youtubers in the past is

Alleged i'm a finance shill and i'm not i'm not paid by financing any way and never will be but one of the things i found interesting one of the things i found interesting nick was that finance labs do a lot of

Distinct research and some of the things they've advocated for or startups has been different to the ones that are listed on finance even so they've tended to be quite tech centric um

Quite code focused as well one of the things uh brenda said recently one of her discussions was that it was a rigorous process even to go through financial labs it was

Several interviews so that's music to my ears and also the fact that you are rejecting some other partnerships because they just don't align with your long-term views so

Kudos to you again now nick for those who are wondering about your credentials and all that obviously they can go and look into it but the fact you you both you and brenda have economics

Backgrounds you work for the cftc all that's legitimate that's something that i like to look at to make sure you have the skill sets one of the questions though is the small size of the team

Um do you plan on building that team out in the future as you can uh afford it with your dev share and can you just reference the dev share to the people who don't know what that is sure so the

Dev share is uh right now there's a mining reward so every block a certain amount of tokens get issued we get 10 of those tokens um and that goes towards the team and

Towards the development of the ecosystem um so yeah that's how we fund ourselves you know since we did no ico no free mine or anything like that that's literally our only revenue um and right now there's just three of

Us so we've we do have several contractors who are working for us starting uh to fill out the code and we would love to expand the team you know we sort of our philosophy on

Expanding the team um we want to stay lean you know you want to you want to crypto prices are so volatile you want to you know you want to make

Sure that you have you want to make sure that you have the runway if if the price that's 50 um so you you definitely want to make sure that that's the case and we also want to make sure that whoever we do higher like it's

It's it's because they're they're sort of a philosophical hire too you know they really believe in teller they they work with us well um and you know especially like a fourth

Hire or something like that that's like you would you would want to make sure that that person or those people that we hire next like they can really just do everything um so yeah definitely because it's all

In trb as well through that devshare um i wanted to ask you something i never did before are you selling much of the dev share portion to again

Sustain your runway you know because obviously um there's not a not a huge amount of funds available but i just want to be trying to get that transparency out

From the team in in paying for the services and the research and for the upgra for the researchers themselves and the coders yeah you go and sell a lot of your trb to do that

Yeah we sell most most of it um each month and we want to use it up you know we we save it a little bit we try and stash as much away as we can but yeah we also don't want to be one of those protocols that just holds onto it

And stashes it uh we want we want to use it to grow the network um that's sort of what it's there for so you know we we have bounties that are available for people to go and build on we

We want people to earn it and we want we want people who are building on it um yeah so you know like hey we we want to use all the drb every month we don't want to sit there and

Hoard it right okay and obviously as the ecosystem grows as the network grows um it will arguably be much less impactful you know over time when you know you

Have a significant number of miners at play um yeah i mean really interesting model i've always been a big supporter of this devshare because you're invested literally in the long term because you're taking you're

Extracting you know the mining rewards all the time so you have to have more miners um clearly the numbers are improving you've even mentioned from the start you were surprised how quickly

Miners jumped on board is that number really growing now uh that number's it it's very volatile uh right now we're at we have about 50 miners on the system uh providing it um but yeah i mean as

Far as just how fast the network's grown and just the level of interest it has been shocking yeah you know just like you know you always you you know it's you you sort of put it out there and

Then a part of you it's like oh man it's gonna work and then whenever everyone just starts to take to it and start to see your vision and it comes absolutely and it's great to see that

You've aligned with ethereum to start off with because of the um the market share developers that they have because of the prominence they have in that smart contract solution you know in the broader scheme of things

But the bounty program i found that great because it's transparent it's all up on a document for anyone who wants to look um i'm sure you have links to that and i'll make sure there's one in the description below but you've spent about

31 000 so far on very distinct bounty initiatives and you've mentioned that you're flexible with you know other things if you want to get on board and do other things so can

You tell us a bit more about the bounty program um and that you're you know what you what your what it's about yeah so you know the bounty program is similar to a lot of other batting

Programs you want to help us build teller you want to do an upgrade to the miner you have some skills on you know you want to build a better user interface for color users you want to you know a

Lot of it has been there's been several articles somebody's pretty showed hey if i write this article will you give me you know hundred dollars with prp it's like you know like

Yeah like if it's a good article yes we will and um you know even other ones like another guy redid we did all of our documentation for us and and like those kind of things and

It's just great to see the community kind of you know these are people like because we we don't want it to be you know because we struggled at first we didn't want to to make the bony so high that you would

Have just killed factory yeah yeah you you know like you don't want like you know bounty hunters coming in like the people who have been going after our bounties

Are like actual community members who are building these things themselves like you know we had one guy he he built his own you know python library for teller and we gave him a bounty i guess he just

Open-sourced it you know like those kind of people who are like they're building on it and and you want you want to just reward them and that's what we want um because that's you know we we like to

Look at like how ethereum got successful um for instance and you look at some of the big reasons that ethereum got successful and it was just that in my mind there were two way two

Reasons so the first was that like base consensus was a huge part so they played a big role in they started to fund all of these developer initiatives and there was actually a way to

You know get paid to work on some of this stuff right and you know and other protocols need to make sense need to figure that out because like especially if you have a giant ico

And you you make all this money you know like you if you have zero customers or zero developers on your platform you basically have to pay them because they're the people who are adding

All of the value to your system exactly you know so you have to pay them and the other thing that ethereum did which we've tried to mimic too is you started they started out with a relatively low

Market cap you know i always hate whenever projects come in like they ico at a you know 60 million dollar market like dfinity did this i'm just going to name them

Because remember them or hashgraph i mean they just come out with such ridiculous numbers well yeah but because then there's no upside you know like all ethereum the reason ethereum has so

Many die hard supporters is is that that made they made so many people like money they made so many people sort of financially free

And nick could that be called be because is money in one facet of its utility because you know there's an argument out there let's just bring it um pompliano recently and i had a very

Direct you know comment back he made the allegation that it is really akin to fiat i totally disagree from my own personal reasons but there is this narrative coming forth from the

Ethereum side that it's legitimate uh money aside from many other use cases that definitely has yeah i mean we get into a really long discussion about it let's not do that sorry digress but let's pull it back to

Your bounty i love that you have that now one of the things that you did have recently talked about may not be so public is telefund i love this idea very clever because

It's a way for other people you know to get involved through crowdfunding mechanisms to really promote teller in a way in which you guys really can't quite afford

Yeah so this was uh so like i actually couldn't make it out to eat denver um but i decided to just do a hack anyway and i created a teller. because you actually see so everybody comes to us and

You know like they're always like hey can you go list on this exchange go to coinbase yes can you can you sponsor this event can you pay this sheila yes can you pay this show or pay this ama person and

Right our answer is always like no uh we you know they're very expensive too there's and that was the key issue they're very very expensive you know a lot of you know your podcast is great but you

Know like a lot of podcasts they charge a whole lot of money for doing this kind of yeah and and nick you know once upon a time i was really critical of that sort of paid aspect now not so much

I can't stand the leverage trading shilling from inexperienced promoters but in terms of their prices for promotion you know that's just i guess part of capitalism and i'm kind of

With that but still like you said some of those charges are about ten thousand dollars some of them are five thousand dollars that's a lot of money yeah so what we did was we created a website where you can come and

You can put up there hey pay for this podcast and then you can have the teller community sort of contribute to it so crowdfund these efforts

Um i think it's a brilliant idea it really is because the community often asks for those things yeah if you guys really want this listing or if you guys really want this thing

This is how much it costs and and i'm actually curious because so you know especially like on the exchange listings or the ama partnerships because we you know like some of them come to us

And are like hey like we'll do this for you for this price we tell them like oh well we created the seller fund thing can you post it up there and a lot of times they say like well no our prices

Aren't public yeah i know it's so disgusting i know and they're really insane prices as well and many of these influences they get they know that you know there's a lot of stuff going on

But what matters though at the end of the day is that telefund is legitimate in terms of what the community want to do so you don't have to always go to those parties that you know where there's

Collusion there's legitimate educators out there that want to spread the word of teller which i love so hopefully it incentivizes you know your name to spread but without compromising the long-term

Approach to liquidity because that article you wrote about the delusion of liquidity also reflected on the dangers of short-term you know fast liquidity because we've seen the

Likes of um narratives driving pump and dumps you know and that's certainly not something that ethereum nor taylor espoused in any way so

It's really exciting i think actually to see an illiquid market and a more organic evolution yeah no you know like regarding your reference to the delusion of liquidity it's just um

You know you want like i i think that it's so underrated in the space that people people always want this really liquid markers these super fast token markets and like to me like i would have like you know

Very few exchanges listing us like just dexes that are hard to use um if you want to sell you have to move the price if you want to buy you have to move the price it's all transparent you know like how much do you actually

Believe in it and how much do you want because like whatever you have yeah do you want to do you want to be a part of it you want to come earn it by a bounty is it you know all these protocols they

They seem to just want holders to pump the price um you know we want holders who want to be part of the community we want holders who want to hold it for the right reasons

And you know they understand where we're going because ultimately like whenever you whenever you have a token in your protocol what you're trying to do is you're trying to create a community out

Of that token especially whenever you have this these dow sort of tokens um so you need the community aspect you need to like the people who are holding your tokens and you need to trust them

With certain things yeah um so it's really important that you place you place that civic responsibility on them early you place that you know necessity that they're

Engaged in your protocol that they're they're sort of they know what's going on and you know we we like that about our community and we want to keep that right and nick you know it's interesting

Because some of those uh dexter's as you mentioned you know you listed on idecs for example not to shield them but i have spoken with the team and i respect what they're trying to do

A lot of these uh listings they come forth because they share that same ethos when there's significant charges for listings you have to ask yourself i think you know what's their real agenda is their wash trading i mean

I've looked at some of them and there's absolute evidence there to suggest not every listing not every exchange party is legitimate so right now in my own you know view and my experience with blockchain is it's

Actually good you have a few listings it's great that there's this graduation and this gradual trajectory upwards for you know your value based on pragmatics based on utilities so

I think there's a lot of boons for where you're headed and the way you're going yeah i mean i hope that i wish that more crypto would try and do more about it um you know like it's even bitcoin and

Everyone like wash trading is it's the name yeah it's awful like and it's for those of you that don't know it's illegal here in the us um you know it's it's just it's pure

Manipulation and um it's really hard to sort of get a feel for you know where the volume is real but if if you just sort of focus on you know dexes where

Everything's on chain like now it's more honest like it's okay if you pay it's okay if there's a two percent spread on your token having self-custody as well as a great thing um yeah you know from the likes of

Eric voorhees he's a huge proponent of you know giving access and keys more to the people but what about the regulated side this is where i get fascinated by your experience with the cftc

You're clearly a pro regulation clearly to try and sort of clean up some of these issues do you think that perhaps some of the regulated exchanges are taking you seriously you know looking into this because legitimate

Exchanges should be listing for free they shouldn't be ringing up saying let's do a deal yeah i mean i can't necessarily comment um no i think yeah hopefully they do i think you know the it's always

Shocking you know a lot of places though you know like whenever you talk to them be like oh we need we need a legal opinion of your token um you know like a lot of legitimate exchanges even ask for

Like hey listen we can listen we need a legal opinion of your token and it's like why yeah like you know like what this is so basically they want you to go pay some lawyer to give you a legal

Opinion that says you're not a security and you know it's like these are the whole space in general is just it's it's everybody trying to cover cover themselves in case the sac comes down on them and

Yeah um you know hopefully but you know like my my goals for regulation you know we want to get the fraud out of the space and that's definitely one thing that i hope regulators can help with

You know just like you don't want people to fear that when they come into the space they're going to lose money to a blatant yard and you know your experience there was one of the reasons i looked

You know much further into it because obviously you having been such a key part of the cftc in the blockchain arena was significant as you moved into the derivatives protocol research and

Planning and then now this but nick on the derivatives i wanted to ask you you are one of the best to ask what are your thoughts on the serious impact potentially that derivative trading is having on the

Spot market on those who are supporting long-term utility i know you've written an article about it i don't know if i totally agree with all of it but what are your thoughts on the impact

It's having especially with those that are paired now on derivative platforms so like you know if you look at economic theory and a lot of papers derivatives are generally a great thing for price

Discovery so you know if you have honest markets is the sort of the key um derivatives can be really great whenever you know if you see a lot of shorting pressure

It's usually an indication you know that the price should go down um so it helps markets sort of adjust faster and that's sort of the key of capitalism because you know some people don't like it because hey

Their token their the price is going to go down or something um but if it should go down it it should go down um right you know you sort of have to admit that like you know maybe it's

Overpriced so like just banning things that over you know then you just like blow up the bubble even farther and have a harder crash later so you don't want to do that

Do you want to have things for efficient price discovery and derivatives can and do help that got it and it's interesting in the crypto though because it's an uncorrelated or non-correlated

Environment it's still very nascent there isn't a lot of liquidity in truth when you look at the real volumes the real liquidity um and i think that's got to have an impact

On you know the increase in the derivative trading you know in this very early stage perhaps too early nick sure yeah so i think a lot of it is is a little bit too early because a lot of

These a lot of these derivatives protocols um you know like the ideal derivatives protocol is one that people are using for hedging things so these are you know you have

You own bitcoin and you want to protect yourselves again you know the price of bitcoin moving because you want to sort of use it for something later or you know like that was like what the derivatives were originally invented for

But you know now basically with these the invention of like if you look really fit max like 100 x contracts yeah there's crap like 125 x and someone what like 200 x these are just

Lottery contracts basically um you know like those those are not good for any sort of real life utility got it yeah and it's good to know for you to have that experience and it's great also

As you start that you don't have those rivety pairings because we saw the likes of some of those really suffer um because you know there's just too much volume on that to review trade for something that just didn't have the spot

Support didn't have that volume support um and there was just a lot of manipulation going on so you're not part of that which was appeal appealing to me um but yeah there's obviously a lot

Happening for everything that you are building you must be excited for the future with your planning the upgrades themselves i wrote down some of the things you mentioned like the telescan the rsr upgrades i

Mean there's a lot you're doing in the background you know as you move you know forward technologically definitely yeah so you know we're we're trying to stay kind of on the

Cutting edge of what's possible in the current networks um so you know just kind of stay tuned for for a lot of these upgrades i think you guys will be um really pleased with kind of where

Teller's going in the future just because we're going to really stick to our core principles and and move forward and make sure that technology is there for people actually use

For sure and thanks for doing those weekly updates as well a lot of people appreciate them the community um even though it's small it's certainly growing and being watching and you're doing now those core

Discussions you and mike get together and you know hopefully the amount of tech in those talks will increase over time as well because even now you still definitely raise questions

In the community and try and answer them with regards to ethereum i wanted to ask you about your concerns if you have any with from pow or with ethereum 2.0 are you concerned at all about some of

The potential risks there given the the asic and the cpu you know mining debate the concerns you know more generally forking i don't think there's yeah i mean it's

I'm sort of a agnostic party and that it probably won't affect me directly either way um you know it'll probably be fine if no matter what happens with the ow but like i'm usually just kind of

Anti trying to fork out a6 in general yeah um it's it's sort of you're playing a whack-a-mole game so you know you know and especially since we're moving to

2.0 sooner i hope um you know with these 2.0 i think just you know hopefully we can get there i think scanlan's getting better um but that they just sort of move slowly

Yes and there's a lot of work to go i mean with the zk roll-ups the optimistic roll-ups and there's a lot they have to build out but you know it's a trend in the right direction now

Speaking of that let's talk about not just alliances but actual meaningful collaborations technologically matic harmony cosmos bitcoin question mark could because your ethos is about censorship resistance

And decentralization the plan forward you're starting the matter can you just give us a bit of an update on what's going to happen there sure so this is the alternate chain structure that we're building

Um you know if we were taking a look at all of these other uh protocols so that are non-ethereum client based and we're trying to figure out how we can support them um

The general idea is that you know they obviously if you're on cosmos or any of these networks they can't read ethereum because they would need an oracle to do that um

But how can tellers sort of port over to their systems and provide data and we've created a way for them to do that we've been in talks with their teams and so we're we're starting to um

Yeah so we have we have to code up on github uh we're testing it now um and yeah you guys can go see that and now we're trying to talk to projects we're building on those

Platforms to see uh who needs a decentralized oracle there as well awesome so the alter alternate chain structure um that's no doubt something you're planning forward in the future with even

Projects you haven't yet talked to with regard to potential platforms because you're not just working with ethereum either you know in the in the future i'd imagine you've referenced cosmos and you

Know them from you know some time ago so the agnostic nature of what you're doing is real you know you do support d5 not necessarily one specific platform

Right yeah you know we we definitely want to be able to support multiple different platforms wherever the demand is there um because of the principles of how we build teller can be easily

Boarded over to multiple things and the real thing that you want to leverage is is the network is the community because that's that's the thing that we're that's the special part about teller that's what we're trying to build

So you know like if other people can leverage that community that reports data that that's where the value is that's right and it's just

Exciting to see all these different developments i mean the eip two three six two if that's the correct number that's exciting as another the standardization now you're talking about another development

You know trying to build out more collaborations partnerships uh for the longevity of teller i mean there's a lot going on um some other things i've written down perhaps as goals for 220 because you

Referenced it's not good to just put forward promises but you did reference things like you really want to focus on the areas like stable coins lending betting options insurance as potential clients

So are you moving that direction like is are you confident now that you're getting through the support of your contacts and your investors are you getting more interest in those arenas of d5

Definitely yeah um you know those would probably be you know people are starting to realize like the importance of oracle's like i can't stress that enough like people people get it now they've seen enough

Hacks on on the oracle systems that they're like okay you know we'll call these teller guys they seem to have something different um so yeah it's it's looking really promising for d5 because

Especially with the buzz growing around d5 in the ethereum space um it's been really helpful for us that we've sort of kind of fallen in with a lot of those project projects awesome nick now

What about the risks of mobilization or the risks of attack or the risks of um essentially just trying to overthrow a network are you concerned at all about any of that given that you a uh solar liquid b you know there's not

That many miners yet and it really it's potentially possible to go and you know become have a significant market share of tib i mean maybe you could potentially vote uh

You know the the real way to break teller so even if you broke the mining network you would have to you know you could submit a bad value on teller and then you would have to we would

Dispute you and you would have to win a vote so meaning like up to like 51 percent of the tokens you would need which i said again now so yeah i mean you couldn't even buy them uh you know

Like there's there's none there's not enough liquidity there to buy it you know like you'd buy up all the order books everywhere and you'd maybe get five percent of our

Tokens um so like that it's sort of a good thing that you don't have the liquidity because you skyrocket the price yeah um it's like that

That's really where the security comes from so you know i think it would be really hard to sort of break it especially at these stages unless you did you know slowly accumulating for

Right and months and different addresses exactly and it just finally just um just to reference some of the sort of educationally centered efforts you're making to be known i just want to plug a few things

You're looking at things like workshops hackathons you do a monthly medium which is you know comprehensive so thanks for doing that um you're looking at legitimate efforts to you know interact

With other and collaborate with other members of the real d5 space like going to consensus as i understand things like that so it looks good for 220 for you in

Terms of the way you're approaching um information output yeah you know we want to make sure that we're continuously kind of educating people you know as you've mentioned the weekly podcast hopefully

Everybody comes and joins our weekly calls um and then yeah we just we want to have that kind of good amount of content out there we want to make sure that it sort of fits and people can see where

We're going and just really talk to people as much as we possibly can yeah we're at all the events so yeah and i respect that i mean i'm hoping to come across to consensus as

The one thing that i might get to we'll see but also nick i liked that there was some of that autonomous movement in the mining pool sector um that's not something that's initiated by

The teller team but they're starting to be you know more um more support more interest in collaborating to try and do the do some mining you know when people can't necessarily be a miner

Themselves yeah so you know we had one guy who built a pool already so he built a teller pool and there's two other pools in the works now um so it's really interesting you know

Seeing like uh community members just starting to run their own pools um and we're all supportive of it you know we try and help them out as much as possible so it's uh yeah it's fun um

Just seeing kind of that organic growth and you know like whenever you see like other people who are you know like they talk to you and it's it's basically like teller is their full-time job and they've like never met

The team right so it was super cool absolutely and you know nick you know again not to fomo and as i've mentioned i am an investor in the fuel that i threw in and then i

Do i actually am going to be looking at the mining aspect i really want to look more at this utility i think it's really changing the game for people in their mindset but just with things like the shilling of

Projects recently we've seen some of the market movements and some of them just really insane and recently i wrote to you and i said you know are you a member for example of the eea

Or do you know about eminence so i wanted i asked you those because i legitimately wondered you know where you are you part of them but at the same time i didn't want to ask because of the

Potential for the token to pump so are you looking at alliances or alignments or you know working with you know groups like this in the future i don't really understand the full nature

Of what it really what's required of something like the eea but i just want to give you a response on it well i know some of them have like hefty uh uh joining fees um

So that's facebook yeah we're not really about fees i didn't realize that so you have to pay to go into eea i believe so um okay and you know we're not

So we're sort of anti-fee yeah as a stance and then otherwise we we also don't like um you know enterprise really isn't our forte um you know a lot of these uh kind of alliances and these consortiums

And things like that they're more focused on them like i like them like the hyper ledger crowds yeah i mean we're looking at a different kind of enterprise really though aren't we like a more

Autonomously geared one because hopefully more of them of the ones in those like alliances and stuff are uh and i would say it's like what will it get us you know

I gotta i don't care yeah like you know we don't we don't want to partner in the banks anyway yeah well well mate you know to finish off the interview thank you so much for the time

I really love talking with you you're legit you're in the space because you want to be here for the long term and the oracle it's an absolute necessity that's the conduit that's that bridge

That makes a lot of these data feeds relevant it's the only way that they can happen and we haven't yet seen the likes of a decentralized one really take hold and showcase

What this can do in concert with ethereum or something like that i really respect that you are doing things you know you know the tough way it's not easy to have the slower more expensive

Um offering at the beginning but like we've seen ethereum nick we know it's possible we know that there's there's a grassroots movement happening right now and i really you know hope people start

To listen more more to those who are here for the long-term viability of the technology as opposed to those short-term shills so netkeep building might keep going and i will absolutely be here as a free

Ambassador to continue to help talk about teller oh thanks brad oh so are we letting our hair down now yes we can now we can we have we have to just show that we do

Actually have we we have here the feral hair yes it's done it's down feels good thank you there we go all right thanks brad say my cheers

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