Software Engineering Careers in Crypto with Graham Perich

published on August 2, 2020

Hey folks what is going on it is rapping aka Krypto Bobby and welcome to another episode of the proof of talent podcast today we had a great interview with Grandpa rich who is actually somebody that I used to work with before I started proof of talent he was a

Software engineer at fluidity the parent company of air swap and is now a software engineer at coinbase and in this conversation we talked a lot about what it takes to become a software engineer in the cryptocurrency space for

Those who are currently working in the engineering world outside of crypto and may be interested in transitioning into it but also a little bit about his background getting into engineering in particular because he actually didn't

Major in computer science in college and he attended a boot camp after college so we talked about that process as well and how he ended up pursuing a career specifically in the crypto industry I think if you are interested in technical

Positions in the crypto world or maybe you're not engineer right now but thinking hey maybe this is something for me this will be a really good conversation for you and as always this podcast is obviously sponsored by proof

Of talent if you're not aware Holton and I run proof of town it is a recruiting firm that works exclusively with companies in the blockchain and cryptocurrency world so if you are somebody that is looking for your next

Job in the crypto world always feel free to reach out to us at proof of talent CO or if you are a company that's hiring looking for new talent feel free to reach out to us as well we're happy to speak with you about exactly how we work

And how we can help you to find some of the best talent that is looking for new opportunities in the industry all right without further ado let's hop into that interview with Graham I didn't actually major in computer science I was a

Communication major didn't really know what I wanted to do when I was 18 and oh yeah by the time it was like the summer after my junior year I was like doing some online like HTML CSS classes I wanted like build a website and I was

Like okay I actually liked this a lot so I took a couple CS classes my senior year and just started learning a lot of JavaScript in my spare time and I hadn't have units to graduate I wasn't gonna like do a CS major but I

Was at that point like really grinding like self studying online there's just so many good resources like a lot of people these days are self-taught so yeah that's pretty much my story I just like grinded really hard nights and

Weekend studying went to immediately after I graduated college I went to boot camp in San Francisco called hack reactor and then right after that I got a job back in San Diego where I went to school working in like a web agency

Building like mobile and web applications I was doing that for about a year and this is like just heading into 2017 I immediately at that time was getting interested in crypto made the jump after about a year my first job so

Yeah thanks God I'm curious you mentioned hack reactor like what's what's a what's a bootcamp like you know like what was your experience like doing that you know you're not in a classroom you don't really have a teacher what was

That like yeah so hack Raptor was pretty intense I think most of them are pretty intense they condensed it down into like three or six months so we were going like Monday to Saturday from like 9:00 am to dinner pretty much so as all all

We did like you know no one was doing anything else other than that program and it was you know people who wanted to either make a career change they were professional as a career and they wanted to change or people who you know we're

Just driven and you know that everyone there's already an intermediate programmer you have to have kind of like a baseline skill level where they take you from like you know intermediate to employable essentially yeah it was a

Phenomenal experience the instructors were great this was back in you know 2016 that I did this so you know a lot could have changed since then but you know I thought it was awesome yeah that's it's it's interesting

Because I think we definitely talk to a lot of people in the software engineering world that come from the boot camp type background I think they've grown in popularity even more so since 2016-2017 especially with

Like Lambeth school come into prominence but kind of going beyond that I know you'd mentioned getting your first job out of college at a development shop and then going into – when you started actually working in the cryptocurrency

World would love to get your thoughts as far as like how you were able to find your first job in the in the crypto industry yes it was a bit of serendipity actually I was spending most of my time when I wasn't working like going deep

Down the crypto rabbit hole I'm sure everyone remembers like when they first heard about crypto beyond just Bitcoin but going into like etherium and the unstoppable application narrative and all the you know things that you can

Dream up about what can happen in the future and then you know picture yourself being part of that and so I was been like you know totally captured my imagination was spending all my time thinking about that and researching

Companies and projects and I was going to in aetherium meet up in San Diego at the time and one of the speaker's was Michael ovett it was one of the cofounders of fluidity and I actually was like in the telegram channel back

Then and mentioned and we had a meet up and he said he was going to be in LA at a meet-up and so I said you know you should come to offers – and so he did sounds a bit of like you know taking initiative I guess putting myself out

There but he came and spoke and everyone loved in chatted with him afterward for a bit and then if you you know months later I saw that they had job postings so I just emailed him directly and got the interview one thing led to another

That's awesome I feel like everyone's got their story of how they like tripped and fell down the rabbit hole and everyone knows once you fall you're not getting back out of that yeah absolutely yeah and that kind of ties into the next

Question is kind of like you know it this is such a fun industry right there's so much to do there's so much going on all these new projects all the time like what do you enjoy most about working now

As a software developer in the crypt of industry specifically yeah I think there's never a dull moment as you guys know right because you're not gonna be bored working in this industry there's always something going on it's also just

As like a technologist right it's like the the bleeding edge of technology where things are evolving and being proven or disproven in real time and you know we're really kind of like pushing the needle on what's possible and just

Being right there is you know it can be a really thrilling experience so I think that coupled with just the fact that there's you know a high upside right if we're on this rocket ship and things go well we build the future that we all

Want then it's it's really great for everyone so there's a lot of excitement right yeah absolutely I mean I think that for everybody like the this space just moved so quickly and it's I like always joke with people that it's like

Dog ears you know it's one year and crypto is seven years and in like real life but I also I also just like like your story a lot too as far as finding you know a job at fluidity I think for me kind of a similar type of scenario

Where it was just like building a personal connection with somebody and I think that overall it's a really underweighted underrated way to to try to go and find a new opportunity you know so many

People will will just maybe apply directly to a job opening and that's great and that might work if you have a stellar resume and it just jumps off the page but if I mean even if your resume is not fantastic like Bolton and I know

You know when you post a job online and you get a hundred applications sometimes things can get lost in the you know in the inbox and and being able to take the initiative and go and do that one-on-one direct email that is is so much more

Effective in in the long run even though it might take more time yeah I totally agree I mean it's one thing to like apply to a company that is like a really big company like based for example where they have a good

Recruiting funnel you know it's very formalized there's people looking at it every day and moving people through the process but then when you think about like a smaller startup they usually don't have formalized recruiting funnels

And recruiting pipelines and so it you know they just go on to their app that they used to intake applications and there's like dozens and dozens and dozens and you know it's easy to slip through the cracks that way so that's a

Good point yeah and you like if you're it was passionate about one company or another you know you can pretty easily reach your founders and and things like that on Twitter you know or whatever app or social media they use the most you

Can go there seek them out send them a DM like you did you know send ammonium you know you never know you know and just put yourself out there I think that's great advice you know so if if you could go back in time you know and

You kind of fell into it but would you do anything differently before starting your career in crypto like would you plan it differently would you've been a little bit more strategic how would you have played that out that's an

Interesting one I actually don't think there's anything that I really would have changed for me I kind of just jumped right in with two feet and moved all the way to New York for an opportunity that I thought was promising

And you know I don't regret that at all I I'm much better for it so yeah and in my case I guess I'm lucky that I don't have anything I'd really call out to change that's good and and to you know I I know and kind of a similar poet I

Think it's kind of funny P as we both went to work for the same company and just kind of both jumped in head first when we did that but I'm kind of curious too because I I don't have the the context of being an engineer and and

Being a software developer in the inner crypto industry I've I've worked in it professionally before but I don't understand that the tech challenges at at a minut level as somebody like yourself would like you know in

Comparison to the traditional world is there anything that's particularly challenging about being a software engineer in the crypto space at least right now or even previously yeah for sure I think a lot

Of people a lot of engineers who come from working on like web 20 technologies like uh I'm primarily like a web application developer so that's what I can really speak to right like full stack web applications and a lot of

People coming from that background we have like very well-defined well tested tools that have been around for a long time the developer tooling at this point is really excellent the cloud services that are offered make it really easy to

Spin up things and orchestrate things and in crypto a lot of that slacking so even like something simple like reading data like you're building a application that needs data from etherium like that data accruing layer is not a given think

We went through several iterations of it right and like that's a pretty important thing to be able to get transactions for users metadata about users whatever it is a smart contract interaction like having to figure out those

Implementation details on your own that's just one example but that's something that happened all the time for me and a one hand it's cool to be building that stuff thinking about how to solve those problems on your own well

On the other hand it's not cool when like you know you're using the only library that exists to do some esoteric thing and like there's no documentation and you're reading source code and it's like I'm not going to be doing that with

React or something right where you but the documentation is just dream so yeah it's kind of like you're you're building the plane while it's in the air you know like you're trying to figure it out on the fly for sure what what do you like

As you look at how things have changed I mean you've worked in the industry now professionally for like I think over over two years now do you think things are moving in in in a positive direction from a tooling standpoint kind of

Curious about your thoughts on that end yeah for sure I mean like shout out to the graph if you've heard of that company what they're working on my that's the type of tooling that we need to you know help people just build

Things more quickly and not worry about all those nuts and bolts on the back end so I think we'll continue to see more things like that we have a lot and say like in the last three years that I've been working in crypto like the tooling

Is one of the things that's gone a lot better especially for aetherium and I think that you know up-and-coming smart contract platforms and protocols are really building with like developer tools in mind and so you know I think

This will be less of an issue but just one of those things when you're trailblazing and pioneering it's like it comes with the territory right yeah that's um it definitely makes sense I mean over time it's only gonna get

Better and a lower the barrier and treaty for you know more more software engineers and developers to get in and just have more tools at their disposal you know what has been you know you've been in the industry for three plus

Years now it's like what what is surprised you the most about working in crypto versus what you were kind of doing previously hmm I think for one it's kind of like the the immediate thing that I noticed like going to

Fluidity was just how smart everyone was like some of the smartest people that I've met in my life have been connections that I've made through working in the crypto industry you know both at fluidity and at hackathons and

When I went to DEFCON it's really just when there's something like a new technology I'm sure that if you worked in another technology that's kind of really on the fringe and you know pushing to create new technology that

Doesn't exist yet like AI research you like virtual reality things like that it just attracts people who are really really intelligent for one and driven and there's some people in the world are just kind of like a

Different breed and being exposed to them and being around them is just it's really a treat it rubs off on you a little bit like that saying you know you're the combination of the five people you spend

The most time with and so being being able to surround yourself with good company like that is is a great thing yeah I remember I think it was like at some point time Michael ovett who is one of the cofounders of fluidity was

Talking he was pretty early on in the hft high-frequency trading world and I want to say like 2008 2009 and he was kind of talking about the the the amount of technical talent like the depth of thinkers that were there and how crypto

And 2017 and 2018 was kind of a similar type of environment where it was very early on but you had these really like sharp deep thinkers that were trying to solve really interesting technical problems and I think that but you said

That type of environment helps to attract a certain type of individual that kind of raises the bar of everybody else as they go through you know as they as they work in the industry yeah absolutely and and just looking in

General at like your crypto career thus far is there anybody that has been like very influential whether it's somebody you've worked with or just somebody you've interacted with or kind of read their content curious if there's been

Anybody that really stands out as influential for you yeah this this is interesting because there's those people who like you don't actually know them but you've read or listened to a lot of their work and like they're inspiring

Then there's the people you've worked with so I think I can give I'll get like an example for each one so for one when I was first getting into crypto I remember like the speaker he might have been on like Loras Chen or Patrick

O'Shaughnessy's podcast but they had one of the mic a member who had Olaf Carlsen we eat and the way that he was able to articulate and like lay out the long term vision and promise of blockchain technologies was just like so inspiring

To me and he he doesn't do as many public appearances or public speaking anymore as he used to do but anytime they like I come across something that he's done like he's he's very he's a very prescient thinker like he's always

Kind of thinking about what's next and very clearly articulating like the promise of of the technology and it's kind of nice to go back to that when like you're in the weeds and it's easy to kind of like lose sight of where

You're thinking about things going in the long-term and when you're just going like day by day and brick by brick you can you can lose sight of that and I think that's it's important to have that and so yeah he's he's one of the best

Thinkers I think original thinkers in space in terms of someone that actually no I would say one of my colleagues from fluidity Sam Walker I think he was like one of the earliest hires that they made as well

He was just like when I first got to fluidity like I there weren't a lot of Engineers there yet but I work with him a lot and I had never met someone who was like that good just with front-end programming in

General I was mostly doing like UI development when I first started at fluidity and just learning from him and I Cal self-sufficient he was and he you know like we don't like a technical problem or something and he would come

Back after the weekend was like a full architecture diagram and working proof of concept code and for like web 3 development specifically like like we were talking about earlier there's not a lot of prior work there and so the way

That he would deconstruct problems and from first principles come up with a solution like it was really inspiring and it made me a lot better I learned a lot from him that's awesome yeah and and just this this next portion is really

Kind of with those out there in mind that are working in software development in some other industry in some capacity that wants to get into the crypto industry trying to find their way in you know what can they do so that's that's

Kind of the direction these next couple questions here but so for someone out there that's just that's listening that's interesting to the industry what would you tell them right off the bat like what would you

Advise them to do to get in yeah so I've actually talked to a few different engineers like friends of mine and acquaintances having like the same conversation with them and what I've seen sometimes is that people think like

Oh if I want to get into you know working a crypto job or something like that I need to have like a smart contract developer skill stack I need to know a lot about smart contracts and be able to write them or like you know oh I

Could never work for this company that is like a foundation for a protocol because they just want rust engineers who write memory safe protocol code and like you know I need to go learn that and the truth is were in a industry now

That's big enough to where like that's not really the case so you can work for those companies in different capacities doing you know if you're like a web 20 engineer right building like web applications cloud architecture or like

Things like that all those same needs still exist like we're not at a point yet where we're at the end state of aetherium or some other smart contract blockchain where everything is on the etherium virtual machine and like most

Of these companies they're still going to be like an off chain component to it you still need you know DevOps and infrastructure you still need good UX on the front end and so I guess I would say like if you already have existing skills

As a programmer it would probably be easier to like focus on just becoming really stellar and sharp with those and then just by virtue of being a good engineer with that skill set getting hired at a company that you like because

You believe in their technology rather than saying okay I'm going to go you know spent lock myself in a cabin for a month and try to learn how to write solidity which like we don't even know if solidity is gonna be a thing when we

Have a web assembly virtual machine it's like if you really want to write smart contracts then you know go for it by all means but don't feel like you have to pigeonhole yourself into some niche right

Like just focus on becoming really good at what you're good at yeah that's I think that's really interesting because a lot of the conversations especially you know even with the early stage companies that

We have tend to tend to kind of mirror that advice I think a lot of times people at least it seems to me people are just looking for good solid proficient engineers at a specific skill set and most of the time that specific

Skill set isn't even something that has to do with watching technology they might be looking for you know a DevOps engineer that's a kubernetes stud or a full-stack engineer that's really proficient in JavaScript or you know a

Back-end developer that works a ton with with Java like that that seems like the much more common search for most people so I guess to me it seems like one of the things that would be potentially like you said kind of mirroring off what

You had mentioned and focusing on what you're already good at if you're in engineering and programming already that's going to be a lot easier than going out like you said and trying to take some type of know solidity boot

Camp or trying to do you know a for Bitcoin programming class or something like that yeah yeah I think that also brings in that will ultimately bring in people from other industries right like at this

Industry is gonna grow you know we need people from you know really successful companies like Airbnb Airbnb and slack and all these companies that are that are that have great kind of UX and on the front end there's things like that

That's how you draw in that kind of talent into the crypto industry you don't have to have a specific skill set that's related to blockchain and focus on what you're really good at that's great advice yeah that's like a good way

To put it succinctly like you don't need blockchain domain specific engineering knowledge and at the situation right now like when you're thinking about engineers kind of getting into the industry and even if

It's somebody that's that's not working it right now like are there particularly any good ways to contribute to the blockchain or cryptocurrency world even if you're not working a full-time job like you're I have something else you

Work at another company but maybe you know maybe after work around the weekends you might want to contribute a little bit of time like is there anything that somebody could be doing they'll be helpful for their future

Career prospects yeah this I think it's harder now obviously with the pandemic but hopefully things get back to normal in the future if you have a vaccine or something like eat global events or if they move those online those were really

Really good ways for people to meet and have stuff to put on their resume like when I was looking at resumes if someone had a hackathon prize on there like that always caught my attention immediately so it's also just a great way to network

And meet people projects have booths there but yeah I guess it's not as feasible right now given circumstances so other than I would say just open source development is a good one but it's it's hard to like get noticed from

Doing that unless you have a really popular open-source project or you've been you know contributing to some open source project like a long time and they're hiring or something like that so yeah I would say really like if you're

Just looking for the best way to use your time and not trying to be like oh you know have like some altruistic motivations like public protocol you really love like if you're just trying to optimize your time I would say like

Just even start like 45 minutes a day and just like do the hard work of going over the fundamentals and people don't like to hear like data structures and algorithms but like it's it's good to refresh on that stuff and work on a toy

Problem and just you know day by day you get better yeah that's that's great advice and I think going back to it to like the the conference's are not necessarily conferences in general because I think there's there's

Definitely a delineation between like crypto conferences which are yeah for the most part pretty terrible places to ever go and then like the the more developer focused conferences I think that is is a like great just thing

To potentially if that ever opens back up so who who knows but I went to the eath global or eath Boston event last year I think it was last September and just seeing that turnout there that was at they had that at Harbor and then I

Think it was wanted in New York a few months later but the turnout and the the environment there of people it seems like such a good like collaborative environment and a great place to to network I mean even even the booth so

Those are all potential if you're out of the industry potential future employers or just good people to network with yeah definitely agree yeah so picture yourself coming right out of a boot camp you're like you know 21 years old you

Got the world at your fingertips you haven't pigeonhole yourself you're not an expert anything you know what are some of the top languages or technologies that an engineer should start to familiarize themselves with if

They really want to get into the crypto industry for a for like things that are outside of my expertise I don't feel like I can give super valuable like oh you should go learn go or something like yeah with that said it goes like a good

Manager but so go learn yeah yeah I mean yeah but you just written Python in college I think there's a lot of shops that are writing go now so yeah I'd probably be a good one but what I was really gonna say is like my

Like expertise is really on you know product development like I've been saying and so that's mostly like JavaScript especially on the UI and so you know for that I'll say like if you're like me and that's what you have

The most experience with or it's like what you enjoy then definitely focus just really deep on react don't worry too much about other things with react like redox or like mob acts or whatever just really really try to get a deep

Foundation and react and really understand it and try to use like all the latest idioms and things like don't write like component classes try to use hooks try to understand why we use folks and just

Really if at work here I know it's hard because like I was at a job where like my first job we were using older technology and it's tough when you're not working at the latest stuff day-to-day but you can still work on you

Know projects in your spare time and you can make things that are really impressive and continue to hone your skill set that way so that when you do get to the interview and there you know quizzing you unreactive having you build

Feature or component and react you're just really comfortable and not only able to implement it but a big thing I think that can differentiate being able to articulate why you're implementing it a certain way

Why you're doing certain things and that is really how you demonstrate mastery and stand out and so you can practice doing that on your own – that's awesome just looking – I mean this could be resources on the tech side or it could

Just be like general industry resources you can kind of take this neither way but are there any specific resources that you utilize to stay up to speed on the tech worthy it just the greater crypto blockchain industry in general

Whether it's like a book or podcast or god forbid a YouTube channel yeah for me mostly these days it's Twitter it the signal-to-noise ratio on Twitter can be a little rough sometimes but you know if you are able to curate a good list of

People to follow I really do find like the best most original content on Twitter consistently so that's my primary one these days honestly the runner-up for me would probably be discord a lot of crypto

Projects they have like developer communities on discord and so there's a lot of really right people in there like hacking away on stuff and there's you can often like talk to the engineers work on these protocols in there which

Is like really cool so yeah I'd say discord and then back when I was first like getting like getting into crypto I'm learning about it more I listened to a lot of podcasts these days I feel like I have like a pretty good you know I

Have my finger kind of on the pulse of like what's going on it's a there's not a ton I'm like original stuff that I'm gonna learn from a podcast but if you're new there's really really good crypto podcasts out there there's too many for

Me to name but if you just dig around a little bit you'll find them yeah they're not too hard to find this is the next segment we can end on is just southern that Rob and I used to do on our former podcast rest in peace

Crypto Bobby called pump it dump it so it's the ideas name one thing in the industry that you're buying and one thing in the industry that you're selling so Rob you want to kick us off here yeah sure I'll I'll do both and

Both are gonna be the exact same thing it's kind of cheating but it is what it is first of all I'm pumping tick-tock pumps just because it is absolutely hysterical I I've I don't think I've laughed so hard watching the watching

The videos from tick-tock of these like sixteen-year-old Zoomers just sitting there like I don't even really know how to talk works but just like the background of Robin Hood behind them and just pointing up and just being like oh

Did the one guy just saying it doesn't matter if you know anything about investing just pump it it was like the most I didn't get the quote right but was like the most epic quote ever but alternatively I'm going to dump

Tick-tock pumps because the US government is apparently gonna come down and pour cold water on tick-tock so the tick-tock pump phenomenon and the crypto world and rip dogecoin is a might be a short-lived phenomenon when when Donny

Trump decides to shut down tick-tock dogecoin it can't be shut down can't do it it'll find out what nobody develops on dogecoin anymore it's still rips hard though every all-season is a dogecoin season

Yep gram what do you got that's funny um okay so I'll start with the bad I guess I like to sell it so the like defy yield farming mean like I kinda like the like the farming emojis and stuff and like I'm I come on like this is like do you

Remember wouldn't vitalik tweeted like I don't know if it was like maybe even two years ago now but he was like something along the lines of like if all we're gonna talk about his Lambo like Morgan talked about is like farming like yeah

So yes what's that sick gains no that's that's hurt are you getting healed for the good I'd say man I don't know there's so many things that are interesting the I don't know why this is on my mind but the t BTC

Project keep Network you familiar with that yep yeah I really I really like the premise of that like I remember when it first was announced like you know reading all the work that they put into it and it's

A really cool premise and I know that the first time that they wanted they had like a security issue but I think they're really taking the time to get it right and like I'm glad that something like that's gonna exist so that's

Awesome yeah a lot of exciting stuff like that you know moving along here my pump it for the week so big news from coinbase or else to a couple things here just generally bit VC and Wall Street kind of

Combining with all these IPOs potential direct listings coming up with coinbase and block-by-block fires looking to bring on a CFO to help him go public even ripple I think last year announced that they were heading for an IPO either

This year or next so that's just it's such an interesting time to see these companies that are finally out growing steadily consistently you know trying to go that direction which ultimately in my opinion be I mean a net positive for the

Industry legitimizing the industry in a lot of different ways for saying you know a lot of institutional investors to to do a due diligence and to take it seriously so I think

That's huge so a lot of good news there we interesting to see how it plays out and then my dump it was similar to yours a lot of these what the newest one by Nance I think they bought their emoji I think it's like 10 G's and you can buy

Its you can buy your emoji if you do is it 50 I think so jeez yeah so I think you hashtag B&B on Twitter and you've got the emoji pop and I'm just like the Bitcoin one that jacket and Twitter implemented whatever I don't even know

How that works no comm did it yeah yeah we got to stop doing that I mean I don't know who's next I don't know who would be next I think etherium I'm surprised there isn't one for a theorem yet but it's

Probably in the works you know hashtags are adoption so I don't want you that I don't want you to eat with hashtags because hash tag line is big-time big-time adoption for us in the future so it's it's all sunshine and

Rainbows from here but gram I really appreciate your time popping on today I think you know the context that you gave to a lot of interested engineers in the space or even people who might be considering engineering as a career

Especially in the crypto world is going to be really helpful so really appreciate your your feedback to to those that are interested in something like that yeah I'm glad I was able to talk you guys and thanks for having me

On thanks a lot thanks Graham

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