Putting governance at the centre of Africa’s development

published on July 13, 2020

Hello i'm peter tiffano the dean of site business school at the university of oxford welcome to this latest in a series of conversations and events called leadership in extraordinary times

When the pandemic kicked off we decided that you know it was important for us to join together as a community and a global community to understand what was going on to hear from some of our leading academics about the

Research that we're doing and how it bears upon the issue of covet and the associated humanitarian crisis economic crisis political crises that it's raw but we also spend time hearing from

Leaders at the front business leaders women and men who are kind of in the face of covet and also trying to understand the implications for it for business and broader society

And some of you may know this school has a particular and special commitment to africa africans make up less than two percent of the mbas around the world and if you go to any of

The leading business schools other leading business schools you'll find an extraordinarily small fraction of africans in their class and some years ago i publicly committed an abuse in nigeria

That our class that our students would have at least 10 of our class from africa while this was greeted with some degree of skepticism this year i'm proud to say that 13

Of our mba class comes from africa it's more than that in our one plus one program where we combine the mba with other degrees you'll find that one of the great combinations

Is between our mba and the msc in african studies we run or have run until this year a major african business forum and we will again when we're physically back in business we routinely bring speakers

From africa to the school including heads of state we have a strategy of embeddedness in the university and one of my dearest partners in this strategy is professor wale adebawani the director of the

African studies center my wife and i have personally committed to fund a student from africa each year and you might ask why is this a publicity stunt is this political correctness

And the answer is absolutely not we've said for the last nine years that we seek to tackle world-scale problems and our community has affirmed that over the last year we've gone back to all of our various

Stakeholders and each one has told us that it's important that we as a school not only do excellent teaching and research but we use the convening power and more of oxford

In order to try to directly addition address the issues of the world and how can we do that by ignoring more than 15 percent of the world's population the way that other business schools do

How can we do that by just paying lip service to the region of the world that will see in fact the greatest growth in population we can't so the strategy that we have is very clear

We are committed to africa all things africa but let's talk about what that means is this just another neo-colonialist approach where you know the folks from oxford say that we have all the right answers and the

Answer is absolutely not we're engaging with africa african leaders young and old because we have so much to learn to learn from its young people and to learn from its experienced

Business leaders and today i'm so excited to continue to learn from o ibrahim one of the clearest thinkers about governance and leadership on the continent

I was proud to meet dr abraham at our first africa business forum where he was keynote speaker and he gave a rousing clear and no holds barred talk at the time and

Then i had the privilege of attending one of his forums to read his work uh and to see the work of the abraham index and african government he's not only one of the clearest

Thinkers about governance and leadership africa but he's also someone who has never hesitated to speak truth to power we're thrilled to have him back with us in this broadcast and i hope that you'll find

That we'll find even more ways to work with him today interviewing uh mr ibrahim today is professor wale adebowani the director of the african studies center at oxford wally is a political

Scientist and anthropologist his research and teaching focuses on the processes of social mobilization of interests and empower wally and mo will be in conversation for about 30 minutes and then we'll be joined by two

Of our outstanding students asking questions and then we're going to be over to you where for your questions so please do send your questions to us we already have a number of them that have come in

And i'll be moderating the end of this session uh now it's over to uh to to wallet and to mo for the for this first part of the session thank you both thank you very much uh

Professor tufano um it's a pleasure to uh interview dr mo ibrahim who i've admired for several years especially for your leadership prize in africa

Uh i'm hoping i'll be a leader someday and win the prize so um let me start by asking um about the muay bryan foundation report on kovit 19 which i have read how can the recommendations be transformed into

Action by african governments and their international partners uh oh hi thanks for having me and my thanks also for for peter for inviting me again well i mean we what what we're trying to

Do in the foundation is to try to collect data and present a realistic picture of what's going on and we suggest policy and actions etc and

In covet actually i'm very pleased to say that the african leaders uh did most of them actually did rise to the challenge uh they they came together early on uh they imposed some tough measures

In the communities it is really was wonderful to see people acting and showing leadership uh at this time of crisis

We had advantage of a little bit of window before the wave of the infections came to africa but people use that effectively i mean in europe and us

They had a window to act and we all see what happens so that was good dealing with africa with covert in africa was a major problem because

Uh weaker you know imposing social distancing locking people up when the informal economy is a dominant is you know it's it's so so white and people end

Living daily now you like them up they die of hunger african countries governments don't have the physical space which other countries like uk or us or germany or whatever

They what they told us they said stay at home i'm gonna send your salary and pick up your phone order food delivery wine whatever you want you know you really have sort of a

Holiday paid holiday at home with your family uh of course some people have nice big homes so people have very little tiny apartments and so inequality was obvious there but at least

There was financial support etc we cannot we don't have that physical space uh in in in africa we can also board citizens or businesses billions of dollars have been pounds have been have been allocated to help businesses

Etc so it was tough for africa but somehow for some reason so far the the infections and have have not really been that high the infection rate has not been

High uh will there be a tsunami later on i mean some people predict that it it will hit us hard later on i note that the number of infections are rising i mean yesterday it was touched 400 000

Just few days ago to 300 000 so it really increased quite a bit but still now these numbers are very small compared to what's happening uh elsewhere

I pray and i hope that that that's it we don't we don't have uh a major wave america across our shores of course as usual there'll be some uh of african leaders there'll be some mavericks

Who you know will not uh follow scientific advice or whatever i mean we see we see some leaders in the middle of the pandemic inviting people to go to churches to

To brave because uh you know this punishment from god and if you pray we you know we're going to sort it out neglected to take any other measures or whatever

We see people who totally ignored any advice and at least one leader paid his own life for for not recognizing what is going on but the majority of african leaders did

Really take reasonable action they came together and they built the bridges which especially was europe and we we saw the call for action

By uh which was signed up by a number of african leaders and nine european leaders which was a wonderful step forward so so far africa i think we can take the

Box and say well they behave this time reasonably so what about some of the other proposals in terms of going forward um how do you think they can

Take these proposals on and actually use these proposals in responding to the consequences of the right i think one of the obvious things we need to do not only in africa

Everywhere is to pay attention to the public health public health is is an essential public good governance is about delivery of public goods and in many of our countries i mean the the

The share of the health services in the national pie is very small very little and we need to really to build resilience in our system and

This is not only in africa this across the board and the performance of many countries reflected that where you know the difference was different in germany and uk

Is i think two differences much better organized health service and of course much better leadership and you can see the result what happened here what happened there so people paying with their lives

For incompetence and bad policies and they're going to be reckoning because they have to be inquiries everywhere to evaluate what what each government did

With your people but i think that one thing is important the second one strikingly really is the is lack of coming together as an international

Community to deal with what essentially is a global issue we see a lot of nationalism and i i cornered the market on mosques and ventilators i

I you know i ban my companies from selling stuff elsewhere that's unfortunate and i hope there'll be a good discussion post covered about what's happening to

The international order why are we fracturing why we are you know at a time when you need to come together we have global threats whether it's

Climate whether it is pandemics and we can only deal with this as a global uh community we have to act we cannot deal with climate uh you know individual international can

Help but the action has to be global so the same for paradigma this viruses doesn't know borders or passport controls or it doesn't recognize that stuff

So we really need to deal with it in the in the uh most little way one issue i think the pandemic also highlighted in africa is to pay attention to

The the food food security and the supply chains and how that was disrupted during the lockdowns and i think people now are going to pay more attention

That you need to build the resilience in our agricultural sector and and the the supply links over there because that's one area which was was absolutely clear the the well we

We we hope anyway that we can end up also some form of cooperation when it comes to the vaccines or for because a lot of issues there are gonna fight over the limited supply of if if we found a

Vaccine already we see some issues with some suggested medicines uh you know i mean i was watching a report yesterday about

One of the two medicines who seemed to do some good to the patients uh one of them is an american company which now is banned from selling that everywhere except in

The united states so again we see the display of i wouldn't say just nationalism is chauvinism actually and and i i i don't know uh there is a lack of of

Of of of of this humanity and who are in this for to you know together but uh in us of course it's an election year and people are playing to the domestic

Galleries uh anyway that's a long answer to the question i'm sorry thank you yes um can i pick up on the question of uh food security and agriculture that you

Raised you know to talk more or perhaps briefly on the economic impact of the pandemic do you when you think about your campaign in terms of putting governance at the center

Of africa's development do you think this campaign is useful and critical in this moment well i i i you know how to answer this quest this question

Uh this this this pandemic of course is an issue for us is but it's not the only issue i think at the moment more people die in africa from malaria

Probably than from coffee and but then all resources goes to coffee and we do nothing about the people buying from all other diseases or other issues and that by the way

The habit in other countries as well we need to have a balanced approach to the to these issues how it is issue of consequences and how how you arrange your priorities

Especially if you have limited resources am i dealing with a question or i branched away that's it that you are dealing with it yes okay

So yes because i'm i'm just wondering how you think the issue of governance is central but particularly to the to the question of the pandemic but also to other issues

Which you raised several other health challenges that existed prior to the covid19 pandemic so how do you think that the issue of governance is central or

Relevant in addressing these questions absolutely absolutely because governance about as i said about delivery of public goods of course health is one of these public goods need to be

Delivered but also need to deliver equitably i mean we need to take care of all uh health problems we have and africa has a lot of health issues people are still dying of

Aids we will die of other fish we need to pay attention to that as well there is health there is a food security now food security also is not only disrupted by coffee it's also disrupted by the locust attack

In in in east africa we millions of people are going to face hunger because of the devastation of crops in east africa

So there is a number of of of issues it is you need to balance your act you need to see how the delivery of a is necessary for delivery of p and then c etc uh so

It brings us back to the what we always said governance is essential good governance is central for the global uh uh reaction and i we don't have the time i can give you a lot of examples i mean

School i mean i think to study what happened in uk during the panademic will be the best course you can deliver on governance or lack of it to see all the unnecessary

Uh stupid things which have uh habit in this country but i mean we hope we learn from that it is not uh to name and shame but to learn and see what what what we should do

Yes um finally against the backdrop of the african leadership prize i'm wondering what you think is the most critical role of uh philanthropies in africa today um is it the long term you know uh

Challenges like the leadership price you know uh demonstrate in terms of long-term planning uh or do you think that what's most critical for african philanthropists at this

Point is you know the um health emergency which is uh in this period of the pandemic look they're already they're gonna be pandemics

Okay and africa suffer from so many of these balance after this one you could be another one and another one what we need to do is also to pay attention to the long-term solutions so if you talk about philanthropy i mean

Francois has many faces i mean you can you can focus your resources in sending food or sending masks or sending ventilators to uh where it is needed uh

Is fine but what are gonna happen in the next one what's gonna happen with the one after that i i believe that empowering us uh to have the right policies why do we

Need ventilators and felicity why we don't have enough beds in a way to deal with people why we're not paying attention to to the the health sector now why are not building resilience in that

Why are not building our statistical offices to have proper data to guide our policies why we're not paying for attention for agriculture in order to feed our people i think these are central issues

And some philanthropists try to fill in the gaps in our foundation we're trying to address why we have these gaps in the first place you know

Let us let us try to to to make sure that our governments really govern well when we fight corruption we fight bad policies ethnic divisions sexual division you know all gender

Issues we need to deal with all that in order to produce a wholesale society and proper government functions the role of of the of the prize is really to be at the center of the discussion to highlight

The important role of leadership and governance because that's important so we need to to create or focus some attention uh but it creates this discussion

About governance and and and and and leadership prizes are always one way because it generates here we are talking about the price so i have the chance to talk about link between prior prize and and and governance and

Leadership because that want africans to focus on we need better leadership we need better governance we are not happy with what is there let us improve it because that's for

Everybody's benefit so some francis and i mean we consider ourselves philanthropists we consider ourselves activists and uh we think that can help changing things in the

Long term uh instead of piecemealing you know uh uh uh uh which is it's nice we need we need we need we need the aspirins we need the

The parasite molds to ease the pain but doesn't deal with cancer cancer need cereal surgical operation radiation whatever we need to deal with the source of the problem thank you very much uh just before we

Move to questions from the audience ask how difficult is it for a billionaire to shelter in place in the last few months i'm asking how difficult has it been for

You for a billionaire to to shelter how how do i how how how difficult or easy was it for you in the last few months to uh it was very easy it was very easy because i'm aware of

This this covet shown is a issue of inequality if you are well off you have no problem you have a big house you have a garden you enjoy yourself with your friends and your family

They're no problem if you are poor you have a lot of problems and it a shameful okay uh thank you very much dr brambu that council you know uh apartments with

With so many kids and fighting over the the one computer they have the kids want to to to connect with the school to get the you know

Education and the wife trying to connect with their work to do something just think of the atmosphere of those people looked up in that space with no fresh air with no ability it's terrible

Okay the other hand we have the will of people and it's it's a family holiday so it is i feel guilty but it is it is a problem thank you thank you very much i will now

Go to questions from the audience uh we'll start with two questions uh from our students uh the first would be um ed adil gao uh adil is an msc student in african

Studies at the oxford university she graduated with high distinction from victoria college at the university of toronto where she double majored in african studies and political science

As see queen elizabeth the second diamond jubilee scholar uh model contributed uh educational programming to the house of children school in visaya in rwanda uh so we'll start

Uh the first question from adele please go ahead daddy hello um i know you dr ibrahim our signatory to declaration calling for the covet 19 vaccine uh to become a global climate good uh

What do you think will be the main barriers to achieving this goal and how can we strategize around these challenges i think the main problem of course of is xenophobia and country chauvinism

Etc we said we've seen examples of that before uh if you recall earlier on a plane carrying some equipment for medical staff in its way to

To to to germany berlin paid for it and uh it was stopped in thailand in order to take this back to united states is an american company and this we i mean that was that was really sad uh there is a danger

Here that uh uh similar behavior can happen yesterday i think or there before there was a program about uh the bbc about the two medicines who proved to have some

Effect on on you know the patients and one of them which happened to be an american is not available because the americans said no we keep all that for us

That attitude by the us so far is not helpful and but that's why we can see other initiative now in europe uh with the upgrade showed some eight billion with raise

Etc to ensure that the vaccine is a global good so we hope that people who believe will good in in in our global interconnection and uh will will will help mitigate

That effect the virgin government intervened a few days ago to stop uh a vaccine of oliver from being bought by the americans because they said well we lose access so we're gonna see a number of this

Action between states i don't know if some other states also in future we're going to behave like the united states i don't know but we have seen examples already two or three examples

Where that happened and it is a real real uh fear really but i trust there's gonna be enough uh wise leaders and uh around the world who will stand up and ensure that enough resources are made

Available for a global good chai evangelist promised that it's going to be a global girl but i wait to see if that was just nice words or or true anyway we would

We'll wait and see thank you thank you i'll call peter now great so our next student questioner is dr diana diana juan gallery who's on our outstanding oxford mba program

For those of you don't know our program it's a one-year program and we have students from all over the world and diana's one of those she's the ceo and co-founder of checkups medical centers

Which utilizes in-house developed technologies to provide abscisse access to rapid diagnostics consultation and last mile drug distribution through its delivery services in rural and urban

Areas she plans to use her mba to support her vision to scale checkups medical center 25 sites in the east africa region in the next five years her venture could create over 300 jobs

Provide access to medicines and diagnostics at 30 to 40 percent below market rates which are high in africa to drive universal health care through private sector strategies this is

Wonderful is it from kenya yes are you kenya yes i'm kenyan you guys are the best entrepreneurs in africa really wonderful thank you for that and thank you for

Your time dr ibrahim you're welcome um i believe that african leaders face a very unique challenge in that there are many other healthcare and societal challenges across the continent for

Example in kenya we have 6500 coronavirus cases yet we have millions more who are suffering from life-threatening conditions malaria tb hiv and aids

And many of these patients currently and for lack of a better word are neglected right because we're focused on managing the pandemic and the outbreak but this is not sustainable

So my question is how should african leaders prioritize their country's healthcare needs in this pandemic to meet the demands of the outbreak but at the same time

Service the ongoing healthcare needs of the population that is a wonderful question and it should not be just directed at the african leaders it is global question let me tell you a

Personal story my elder brother unfortunately developed a serious cancer and he came to uk for treatment and it's the advanced stage and he was hospitalized of course in a

Private hospital because he's is not a uk citizen and we i had some operations i'd say uh then they said oh we must you must come and take him from the hospital why

Oh because national health service now is taking control of all private hospitals and they're going to send their patients and they are covered possibly you know covered patients

And uh your brother is at a critical stage and he's at risk of coffee so you must take him home this guy is in emergency treatment oh you have to create environmentalism we have to get all kind

Of equipment we have to get nurses and get the 24 hours and to move him out and i think at least we managed to have a space who managed to buy all this stuff and create a mini hostel at my home

What about other people and cancer is a terrible disease what happened to all the all cancer patients in uk were kicked out would not treat it because of covet and how many people

Died as a result of that nobody knows what about the homes in the uk it's a huge scandal people were dying like flies there because they they just did not forget about that

And uh we just focusing on protecting the nhs protecting enhancement deaths of other people whether it was cancer or whether in elderly in homes or whatever so it is all about poor judgment

Of leaders who cannot see the wood you know from the trees sometime unfortunately people need to have a balanced view what happens is that i think leadership panicked

They suddenly found the pandemic they cannot handle it and they look bad and they make all kind of stupid decisions we're still there making up to up today

So this is not uniquely african problem it is a problem of leadership all over the place you look at the american president how is the guy refuse to wear masks you know

And what what what you say you know so there is unfortunately uh that problem we have worldwide on with this uh uh okay so i'm really glad you raised that question

I just want to change africa to win it because everybody is is facing with the same problems and some of our leaders unfortunately are making the wrong choices and among decisions

Thank you for a very very good question thank you diana um and so we have listeners from you know the americas we have listeners from across europe we have listeners from asia middle east and of

Course from africa and i have the enviable task of going through far too many questions and trying to pick out a few that we can answer um so dr ibrahim these will be wide ranging

Let's start with this one from kingdom in south africa there's a debt problem with within africa's private sector not just its public sector which organizations if any should be

Stepping in to bail out or support companies that is that is a is a wonderful question from the outside we have been arguing that and

That the problem really gonna face africa is not a healthy problem it's going to be an economic problem uh that is going to be massive for us african economies are going to go into recession

Our not selling our mental stuff and actually you know tourism died hotels died you know it's a lot of activities uh are in severe now g20 uh met some few weeks ago or a few

Months ago and said okay we're going to postpone the fair the interest payment on public debt to the end of the year oh thank you very much but africa debt is 44 billion and uh

This public that's about 12 billion or some some close number to that what's happening to the rest that has not been dealt with and then the other question is okay

That is about public debt what about private debt how we're going to help the african business and a number of proposals are being made i mean we have been a discussion i mean our

Sister in unica uh she wrote a song she published a good orbit in uh in in the financial times three days ago or something with some reasonable proposals uh also

We have the giants young who tried to work also uh some proposal you know the african union agreed to appoint some uh four or five people to uh uh uh be the champions for africa

Outside not including to janice because he's also backing experience he was suggesting also creating of something like a bad bank where the debt can be put there etc

Uh vera was suggesting that also you know if you can try to to create vehicles which can uh uh some money ejected in it from you know whether the multilateral or some of the

Donors companies and then we enable countries to borrow from that vehicle which will have a higher rating than the sovereign debt of africa to minimize the debt etc

Their own private sector uh so there is a number of proposals at the table uh nothing happens so far the private sector in africa is really suffering and states unable to help they don't have the

Physical experience there is no question of willing but you don't have the ability to help the private sector it is a problem and unfortunately we have some proposals

But in reality we don't have the beef yet so it is it is it is it is a warring situation right thank you for that and for those of you who are finance experts

What a problem to put our collective attention to about having to solve this debt crisis in africa um next question comes from osimon who's an incoming mba student from nigeria and for those of you who are incoming

Students we are very much looking forward to welcoming you in person in september the question is this uh how can the private sector enhance good governance instead of seeking to take

Advantage of bad governance that's that is uh an interesting question uh when we we hope that the private sector start first

By improving corporate governance that's you know start with you first a lot of problems we have is because of bad corporate governance and i belong to a group called the b b team b as letter b and uh

The number of ceos from across the world a lot of very senior people and uh yesterday was having our sort of retreat video retreat meetings and we're focusing on the issue of how to

Improve corporate governance and for us i think i think business ought to be part of the solution not part of the problem

And we need to start with the various issues and we start with ourselves before you know stand on our soapbox and lecture everybody etc we look at ourselves first what are we

Doing with issues like climate are we addressing our own carbon footprint in our business and our supply chain what we're doing about that is a problem

Very important for our future resilience of business is important you know is at stake here uh gender issues how you know human rights issues do we protect human rights do we

Then taxation do we pay our fair tax do we or are we smuggling so start with your if you if you do well in your organization demonstrate that you have the moral

Values you look at your bones you have a diversity when you're having this discussion peter because most of our ceos are from united states actually like vast majorities and also western

Europe and we've taken the issue of the diversity in the world how how how many african-americans are in the board of american companies what is you know

This event in us have raised this question now about this etc and we need to face that we cannot just push it you know under the car i've been pushing that i've got the carbon since it's in

Civil war in the united states we've never faced our problem we boot up museum for genocide for the in in and i asked people where was the

Museum for slavery you know you guys in america did not do uh did not kill the jews i mean the german killed the jews so german should atone for their crime

Why are you trying to do something for for for the crime of some other people do something about your own crime you started your country with genocide against the indians then you went into slavery you

Need to stand up on faith and deal with it you know germany went through the messification have we went through a similar process in

In advice so anyway we moved into wider wider issues but i think business has a role to play really in dealing with all these issues so we are really fighting for better governance in

Business so please for our business people start yourself before you try to go and improve governance in you know public governance because actually public governance probably is

Better than your governance in your own company so let us be honest i think that's a great answer it's not only true for business but business schools too we have to play our

Role in this so we have a number of questions that are on the opportunity side so let me try two i'll read two one from emma in kenya uh she says where do you feel the

Investment opportunities are in africa especially post covenant 19 and then from uh well there's another one here from uh yuki uh from zimbabwe who's a current mba student what opportunities are there

For african businesses in this crisis what kind of businesses in particular and what will it take to realize this opportunity so both emma and uk yuki are asking what are the opportunities that you see right now

Well i i think the businesses are clear for everybody look what you have been doing through the local our kids have been educated over whatever platforms

So a big winner will be education online clearly because for the first time we experience experience every family experience what is education online your own school peter

Is starting to do a lot of things online because they are forced to do that and then people finally said actually this can work so i see that as a growth huge market especially in africa because

We will have the ability now to deliver high quality education online you know we don't have maybe great professors in our villages our small towns we don't have great but we can have all great professors

Online and it's different so it's clearly education would be a great success we see also things like all services delivered

Over line online i think is gonna grow because you experience that i ordered my food for three months online i stopped going to supermarkets and stuff like that and actually guess what oh i saved an

Energy and served them carbon good breath and i said my time and what what's a great service so we're discovering that how how important then look at people working from home now

You know we all discovered that actually you know what we can work from home and we can be productive we that will minimize the number of time when it is spent in the office that's gonna change but this is a whole

Change in the where we live uh on our transport system etc and suddenly we discovered that that the broadband maybe it's more important than roads that will change also our mindset i

Think if you look at what we have all experienced over the last three months you will find the answer to your question these are the winners the people who delivered for us all

These services and we all get acquainted with it and we loved it that's what i think would be the winners okay let me pick up exactly from that we have a question from

Thomas hellman professor thomas hellman who's professor of entrepreneurship and innovation at oxford syed and i'm so thrilled that our students watch this our accepted students watch this guest from

All over the world but our professors are watching too and thomas notes um is africa ready for growing its own high-tech tech silicon valley i know another silk and savannah what will it look like and

Where so these businesses you talk about some of these will be in fact very tech enabled so how do you see the development of tech across the continent or in clusters

In the continent i think it i think it will it will happen it will take time but it will happen because this this new technology is is a great enabler uh you don't need

A huge amount of infrastructure or capital in order to develop and innovate and it's interesting first time we saw people 3d printing ventilators in some african countries i would have

Never imagined that 3d printing in africa people are able to produce something so sophisticated i heard about a lab in senegal three months ago before you know early

On they use their expertise with uh with dealing with uh with ebola and developed a test for uh covet which cost one dollar

I i could not believe that that is really a very interesting you know need uh of course generates also the the will to to to to do something about it yes i think we we are in good place

To start to see this development of business parks of we cannot create really silicon valley also have to remember is not just about developers or who are actually

Most of them are foreigners anywhere north america i'll visit some companies there are interesting but capital venture capital just next door to them they have these trillions of dollars

Sitting there looking for retail and those guys are next door that helped a lot one of our problems here in africa is the lack of really uh virtual capital and

Engine investors without ancient investors would you have we do have microsoft i mean a guy sorry a guy developing something in the garage who would fund him you know an ancient investor

And that's what that's what made bill gets if he didn't find his funding he would probably end up taking a job in the civil service of somewhere we will have microsoft so that is something we need to look for

Also africa how can we or i don't know what can we do about how can we find angel investor how can we have that that echo system uh where we

Pay attention and we're happy to take risks local guys doing this and that that that that to my view is the main embedment it is not the lack of intelligence or

Ability or or even resource it's a lack of resources lack of financial resources to help the early stages great so and that's you know it's

Heartening to hear you say that because a number of our alums have gone on to do finance private equity venture capital across africa and uh for those of you out there there's there's a big business out there

For you to do if we were doing this you know six or nine months ago there's no way that we would have gotten 50 minutes in and not talked about direct investment by china and by the

West and so a question from kurt saunders what's the future role for the west in in respect to continuing to provide aid has it achieved real change in the lives of ordinary africans

China has stepped in with money business and control of resources by using the pressures of debt what's your view on these issues well i mean that's that's a difficult uh question but uh let me say

I mean the fact is china and africa china is taking like sucking all the air the headline about investing in africa or whatever the fact is actually europe invests much more in africa

Than china i mean it this is a fact the real partner for africa is europe it's not china although there is all these headlines about china et cetera one thing i like about

Europe uh also the many of us since is that there is increasingly more attention is made to governance to to to really play by the book and i was actually in on

A meeting yesterday we have this group meeting between africans and europeans and the european union to try to deal with the issues between europe and africa and we had a number of

Commissioners and number of african leaders not government this is non-governmental but boss presidents and various african economists and thinkers and we're discussing actually

The interaction between the two side and how to improve the leadership and what what really i like that admire was a clear position of the european union now

And we need to reset the relationship we need to have a partnership we are not trying to tell the africans what to do okay together we need to work out what is the best but best solutions which does not meet

Demand is useless we need to understand what's in the mind what is it you know so best supply supply must mean demand and we need to really work this out so there is a great will to

Now engage in a positive manner and what also clear is europe is clear now about engaging not just with the african union as in the bus but with a youth african youth the day before there was a

Big meeting between african young people and european young people with uh people from the commission i was in that call as well and a discussion between

Young people so it's important to include because 60 of african people are young there are 25 so we say to european you want to build the relationship with african leaders with the african union

Or the african people with whom actually you need to relation with all of them you need to get relation with the business you need to build so that is really important in the bus

The relationship was mainly between the african union and the rubio union and it was a mismatch because we said to them actually you know what you don't know you are not mirror organizations

The african union is really a club for the executive club for the african presidents but there is no executive power being delegated there's no sovereignty has been

Delegated when the african union make a decision it doesn't mean any member has to implement it it's selected you know you choose if you want to elected them

It's different the the commission in african union has real power african and sorry european countries delegated a lot of authority in many areas to that body

When they commit and anything without the it's not every european country must do it so uh sorry everybody can but that's not the question

So european negotiator said with a negotiator from african union you shake hand european guy goes home say we have that here sorry you don't have a deal that deal has to be ratified

Individually by 54 countries and parliaments and people and everyone has a different agenda that is different china is a different relationship

China is is a government it doesn't deal with civil society we in our foundation we failed to communicate with china because it's time to say who are you are you are you are you government no we're

Not the government people and they say sorry we only deal with government and we say excuse me you call yourself the people's republic of china where are the people in the people's republic of china

There's only the government and the peoples in the world like china it doesn't work you guys need to talk to people so we cannot so that creates unhealthy environment

Of the possibility of opaque deals things signed we don't know what has been signed we don't know what is being given give me a mineral i built few roads and some hospitals for you

Exactly how many hospitals what quality transparency with china's deals in africa unfortunately lack transparency in most of the cases that is not acceptable and that will

Come back and bite them in the ass we have to to realize that you cannot do dodgy stuff here and there and you think that that will will last we can see a lot of issues in

You know railways lines etc having said that china is an important partner also trading partner with africa we need to deal with china and we sell a lot of competitors to china is just we

Need to have a problem transparent deeds with our customers with our suppliers that is very important okay so well we only have a couple of minutes left so i want to combine

A couple of questions together and they're both about mindsets how do we change the mindset of people in africa with respect to governance and other things we change the mindset of people outside

Of africa about the potential for africa so you know you more than anybody else have been kind of advancing these notions but how do we change the way that people think both about their own potential

And about the potential of this amazing continent i think i think it is hard work peter and we need to do it we need to show example uh yes we we have our faults in africa but we're not that bad

Many african countries actually are run quite one of the things we do is this data we publish all the time and shows here is what you're doing guys we're not hiding anything

Judge us by what uh what we're doing perceptions take time to die unfortunately and still many people call to me idea me and call to me i said me this guy is like 40 years ago

Why you keep quoting this to me how do you feel as a western if i keep quoting hitler or mussolini to you you know you had those guys and you know but we never throw it in your face and say you are guys terrible

You know because you had everybody had their bad leaders had their bad deeds in the bus judge us but what you're doing today and let us build this relationship young people peter also travel a lot and

They go on online i think the new generation coming up also is has more access to information to friends to acts they are more aware of what's happening around the world

Than our older generation who really doesn't have this here so i'm hopeful it's gonna take time it's gonna happen and we will fall in love again with each other

Well i'm hopeful too and you know the thing that makes me most hopeful are two things one is these amazing young people that we've seen today dana and adele being representatives of them and also leaders

Like yumo um you know it's just uh your leadership not just as a business person but then you know you got engaged in the public sphere and through your foundation um so i want to thank you for not only

Joining us today but for the leadership you've shown to the world and the example that you've shown thank you for having me and thank you for what you're doing and i love

The fact you have 30 percent of your students from africa that is a badge of order thank you thank you and thank you all thanks for joining wally thank you especially joining us

Today and i'd like to welcome everyone back next week on tuesday we're going to discuss marketing leaders crisis management and the future of growth plans

And certainly marketing is on hot bird seat these days with a number of other issues and on thursday we're going to discuss the reshaping of the mergers and acquisitions market

There's no shortage of issues in the world that need our attention whether they're in africa or in the uk or anywhere and i hope that you feel supported in these extraordinary times by oxford zaid

And the series leadership and extraordinary times thank you all have a great day and do good work thanks wadi thank you good discussion thank you thank you

Thank you bye-bye thank you you

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