Parity Tech | Joe Petrowski | BlockchainBrad | Blockchain Infrastructure for the Decentralised Web

by birtanpublished on August 4, 2020

hello it's Brad Lori or blockchain Brad and today we're talking about all things parody technology now if you don't know what that is or what it stands for that's simply because this team has been building for some time and in stealth

Mode for much of it and today we have Joe Petrowski here to explain everything that they are doing and exactly what parody texting's for Joe thank you very much for being here yeah thanks for having me Brad

You're welcome Mike now as I said before you have been busy and you are the research analyst at power parity technology and inside that there's a lot more to explore and unpack especially when it comes to blockchain when it

Comes to innovation when it comes to leading platforms when it comes to web 3 and even some of the substrate we're going to be talking about connected to some of those key platforms but before we do I just want to touch on parity

Technology as a term that you Joe what essentially if you know comes to mind when you hear that that phrase parity technology yeah I would say what comes to mind is infrastructure we develop infrastructure for a decentralized web

And I guess like the other word that would come to mind would be generalization so we try to really take these components and generalize them make them as abstract as possible so that you can compose them and extend

Them into like more advanced logic so like we started out back in 2015 coming out of aetherium and like working on the etherium clients and then we build some more clients like for Bitcoin and sea cash and when we started working on

Polka-dot we really kind of realized like hey we're doing the same thing over and over again for different block chains this would really be like generalized and abstracted and so that's what really started to focus on

Substrates and being able to build this composable logic where you could build any kind of blockchain or I should even really say like state machine it doesn't really have to be a ball chain using this framework and then be able to

Connect these so when we have generalization we can also make specialization so we can have lots of different specialized state machines that can all communicate with each other and hopefully build something that's

More advanced by composing these individual bits right and an industry champion you raised a really good point about the state machine you know almost going to one deeper level then the blockchain

Itself and another point you made that was interesting also is being a infrastructural sort of technological team in that yo your focus has been looking at what's working in the past since 2015 you mentioned by progressing

Towards more of a core and central approach when it comes to again driving technology engines that fire up the potential of blockchain so do you want to just touch on that a little bit more because you do know a lot about those

Technologies Joe in terms of state machine how important is it to have developed from that initial ethos of supporting things like etherium Bitcoin and D cash and beyond and then really hone in on the past to build the future

Yeah I mean it's funny that we called 2015 the past here in watching because in in most other industries that would just still be kind of like the present so we're moving very fast but yeah I mean now blockchain there's like a type

Of state machine right it's like a special special case of a state machine and so well let's talk about this in the thing so obviously that machine is the driver for not just hope it up for example we know that aetherium is also

Doing some amazing work but what's exciting is again in the way in which this is mapped out so so let's let's take it one step further with regard to the infrastructure that does exist within context of parity we see the

Lights of web 3 referenced quite a lot and then we as you mentioned before polkadot is a core development as well and a very integral component of the technology that's moving forward and then para nice it's in there as well so

Do you want to just try and help us interconnect the 3 understand the fundamental starting points in terms of team in terms of technologies in terms of you know I guess essentially how parity really came to fruition yeah so I

Apparently kind of like came into being first before web 3 foundation before polkadot was even thought of just focused on the etherium work and then when we came up with the idea for polkadot that's where we really

Started to like go more in this direction and you know web 3 foundation they're they're more focused on like the research and advocacy for polkadot so how are we going to design this thing their job is related to like like push

The development of the polkadot Network parity is kind of like the primary team implementing polka dot but there's actually a lot of other teams so like web foundation interacts with a lot of different groups so like there's Sora

Meets who that's building a client in C++ and some other teams building clients and like go JavaScript and so you know parodies kind of like the leading implementers building our implementation and arrest but parity is

More focused on like the actual engineering and like how do we actually create this thing and like turn it from an idea into something that's real and so we do like a lot of the core protocol development but also like the tooling to

Actually interact with these protocols because they're quite low level and I think that that's just something else that we've seen over the last couple of years is like in aetherium client you just kind of get like the full suite

Where you're talking to the protocol over like some server and it gives you like human readable responses right and like that wouldn't be normal in another protocol like if you were to talk to like TCP you wouldn't be getting like

Human readable web pages right you'd be getting just like the string of bytes and so then we have these like other protocols of like well how do we actually deal with these and so that's like a direction we've gone in a lot

With like substrate and polka-dot is like just having like more abstract and coatings which requires extra like middleware between the actual protocol and the end user so you know web 3 Foundation has really focused more on

Like building the community around polka dot and researching what the protocol should be but parody is like really implementing that protocol and also building the tools so that people can interact I say sorry you know for use

Some analogies we've got web 3 the University the the theory that underpins and then we have the work that you guys are doing a parody which is really the pragmatic approach to making sure that the infrastructure is there and it that

Is reflected also in a lot the slogans one of the statements that are made about parody in literature one of them is a core blockchain infrastructure company so one in touch on this as well because clearly it's a

Company as stated but also very much you know trying to drive forward applications drive forward use so do you want to touch on that in the time that you've been there what can you say with regard to that evidence that there is

That momentum there is that pragmatism there is that direction forward of actually building in the truest sense yeah I mean like when I started like substrate the code base was still like very young it was pre version 10 and

We're coming up on version 20 when it comes like users and adoption I mean we're like in a funny place where you know polka dot and substrate are really like infrastructure for infrastructure so we kind of intentionally don't focus

On like certain uses or verticals because we want this to be as abstract as possible we wanted to be like for any vertical so like if you compare it to like say AWS or something they didn't decide like well we're gonna go after

The healthcare market right they were just like we're going to make like generalized computing services for anybody who needs it and so that's really what we're looking to do we want generalized watching and infrastructure

Whether you want to build your own blockchain with substrate or connect to a larger network of other ball chains with polka dot like it makes sense I mean that context is it fair to say you like the equivalent of the defy AWS in

That and we're gonna touch on some comparisons or contrasts you know as we move on in this interview with other platforms that are also pursuing the same agenda and also I wouldn't even sleep I let's talk about that why not

Because d-file as you know thrown around very loosely right to the community so I'd love to know your take on just re conceptualize AWS how you see it yeah well I mean I think defy is like one particular

Vertical of blockchain and there's a lot more out there in the world so decentralized than just finance and it's like one of the disappointing things about defy to me is that we're just seeing like the recreation of a lot of

Centralized finance like like this industry kind of came out of the ethos that there was like there were there were problems like these instruments were actually like causing fragility in the system and that they

Were central points to the failure not just the institutions behind them but like the instruments themselves were fragile and to just see those recreated in a blockchain that doesn't necessarily heal the fact that like some of these

Instruments were actually toxic in the first place just because you put them different platform doesn't make them better and some of these might be necessary to create other things but I think like I wouldn't confuse just like

Putting something on on a ball chain with actually like it may be decentralized but it doesn't mean that it's like in the direction of like something that's better or more galets Harry I I think you're right some very

Strong and very controversial points and many of them I agree with to be honest because sometimes there is the slogan of defy simply to sell a token as well in in you know the context of popular narratives so you know to recap in an in

A deep in the discussion on this point what you're saying is that we do see the influx of of defy spread around throughout the crypto sphere but more importantly the agenda should be that underpinning of the structure that

Technology that drives forward true and empirically proven decentralization with purpose so that's why I want to dig deeper into this peak and I what I also like hearing from you is there is obviously that spectrum not only of

Verticals but also of the potential technology to integrate with enterprise so I would imagine there's not an aversion to enterprise into you know reform formula reformulated approaches or

Reconceptualize approaches to how mainstream do engage in contemporary technologies that are forward for change afford for a different direction now that may not be instantly decentralized it may be a progressive a progression

Towards that but is it fair in saying that that's where parodies focused is actually providing the tooling the software that being a company that's trying to drive forward innovation but in a pragmatic way so that the

The process is seamless but also it's focused and in some respects conservative as you move forward yeah I think this may be a better answer than what I have given you before no matter I think so let's talk about the team as

Well because that's quite impressive again not to you know inject any farmer into this conversation that's not my intention but with 60 dads with engineering seriously at the core of the skillsets here 15 countries

Involved with those of that number of people you have one of the founders that's Gavin wood and then you had and I probably oz if I pronounced it wrong but Judas Steiner as well as the CEO you have some serious players in your team

You wanna just comment on them we know from considering these things growing yeah I mean I think that number is probably even out of date on my stacks before I mean it's probably up more like around like 80 or 90 developers now

We've really grown a lot like over the last like say six months or so yeah I mean it's a pretty pretty intense team I think like everybody who comes into the team as a new joiner kind of feels like you know oh I really know my stuff and

Then I get here in the first month and it's like oh wow I have a lot to learn and I know like I went through that maybe maybe more for like six months than one month but yeah it's um we have like a really talented team and then of

Course like the founding suite with like Gavin Yuta incredibly talented and like very far ahead of the industry and like really like leading with the development of aetherium and now polka-dot so it's really exciting team to be a part of

Absolutely I really want to dig deep in that last comment you made so we see the likes aetherium doing some interesting things right now it certainly has a very powerful network effect right now even in its current proof-of-work state which

Is quite incredible really considering when you understand what the technology of proof-of-work does in comparison to something like polka dot and you mentioned also composability is a key part of the enterprise

I mean potential is also very much something that's going to be arguably a key component of the future in terms of option but when it comes you know to that team there's references to the first iterations of etherium and that's

Why I think it's important people understand perhaps it's not a case of competition but it's a case of you know bettering technology advancing on the past trying to e-rate what are your thoughts on that and do you want to

Reference a bit also with regard to Gavin because he was the CTO of Europe yeah I mean like so a lot of a lot of the design of poccadot is motivated by like what happened like the design of aetherium and like I guess how we would

Like to improve that and so I I know we we kind of in our like pre-chat decided like not to go too deep down governance but that was one of the things like we kind of realized hey the the process of actually upgrading etherium is like

Really tedious and difficult and so and it's also like very centralized right like who has who makes the decisions who enacts them and you could these could be like very different groups that could be like one group of people might make a

Decision but you're kind of relying on like miners to actually implement this decision and then you're maybe relying on some other group like you could say like exchanges or or pulling a cop or whatever to decide like which if there

Is a fork like which one they're going to call a theory on versus some fork rom and so you you've kind of like you're missing this consensus on like well how do we make a change how do we enact it what which fork do we call it what and

It's not actually up to the stakeholders in the network it's up to these groups who have like kind of like have this insider power whether that's through their organization or because like they happen to be like one of the founding

Members or like one of the developers and those people might not be like the most qualified or like the best that they felt lean on technologists in that context often the motivations are more physical or than more financial as you'd

Appreciate and so that's where you know the imperative arguably certainly in Gavin's case has been to iterate beyond proof of work so let's dig a little bit deeper than we initially planned let's do that let's talk about

In the context also of why it matters that we that polkadot DD iterate especially given that they were in stealth mode for some time building this out to make sure arguably that they were prepared for what's coming and I really

Do mean that with the discussion we're going to have about the substrate and all of the setups that are now walking towards polka dot yeah well I mean the key thing here is that in the governance of polka dot the actual like

Decision-making is on chain and so it's up to the stakeholders in the network to come to some decision about what to do and that could be like changing a parameter it could be like calling some function it could be like upgrading the

Chain itself and then like the really critical step is that the enactment happens autonomously so you don't have to rely on validators or some or some other group to actually like upgrade software and make the make the choice

You don't have to rely on like some other third like third-party listing service of like what they're going to call polka dot the actual upgrade is for quest so it's like impossible to have a fork do to this upgrade and so it

Actually carries out the decision of the stakeholders and it puts that in the transparent way on chain and I just like say like look at us proof of State not purpose of authority so we launched no proof authority mode but like whose

Transition to a proof of stake yeah so like we could go into the launch process a little bit but that's going a little a little bit topic all right well I'm glad you clarified that and my apologies I mean my assumption was the POA was a key

Part of this so the previous take though that's interesting you say that because we see the narrative the common thread of if you're in now pushing for the same Theo s model now in that context what what are some of those key distinctions

Differentiators once the theorem does preach the POS clearly you know the fact that it's all completely Unchained that's something of a boon but also in the context of decentralization what I'm hearing from you is this is public

Omission 'less and decentralized by design with the POS version a polka dot yeah well it's important not to conflate like the consensus algorithm with the F ker so you know like you could still do this

Type of upgradability even with proof of work so proof of stake is just kind of like how you select your validators are and the algorithms like that go on top of Rijo stake to to determine finality they can have an in a deterministic way

It gives you like different guarantees about like what the canonical chain is but the actual the actual driver in like the governance thing and like being able to enact on chain is really like where the logic is hosted so this is where

Polka dot gets like quite abstract but like you know aetherium is expressed like it's in the client and so if you want to upgrade it you have to just gray the clients with this new logic that follows its new rules and that's kind of

Why it's called a hard fork you need to get all these people to update their clients in order do it and that would be the case whether it's on proof of stake or proof of work on polka dot the the client had the actual like runtime like

The rules of polka dot those are separate things so the client hosts these rules and those rules are all on chain then we call it the runtime and it's like this web assembly executable and the client is just like a host

Environment to execute that and so what we can do is when we actually like make an upgrade that would be a hard fork on another network we're actually just putting these new rules onto the chain and without updating the clients it can

Just start executing these new rules so it's just going to say hey at block you know 1 million stop executing these rules and start executing these new rules and nobody really has to update anything and so I think that's like an

Important distinction is that the way that polka dot expresses logic and the way that it hosts own logic is very fundamentally different it's an extra layer of abstraction from any other box chain Network

I think that's beautifully said and you might have clear that there's less of a boardroom approach in the way that there's almost this automaticity built-in you know through the upgrades that are just built into the code and I

Think one of the things we will do in the future is really delve deep into more of the governance structure but you have articulated some key differences and for those who want to know more I'll put some links in

Below as well through guard to some of the publications that Joe has written and others as well because they really do go much deeper into these differences or with regard to cut governance and really explain clearly why polkadot is

Worthy of the understanding their governance model so let's pull it back a little bit though you know out of the depths of governance for a moment let's look let's discuss a little bit more about enterprise now that's a buzzword

Just as much as defi in the context of potential utilizing the best of deal team and blockchain so what do you think is the vision for example with polkadot given that we we are still now looking for the future proof of adoption and

Users in real tangible context that we can actually assess properly according to the idea of utility yeah I mean like I should just say like when it comes to enterprise you know like substrate and polka-dot weren't designed specifically

With enterprise in mind it just so happens that a lot of the abstractions and generalizations that we've made are useful also to enterprises and not just to like a start-up or like an independent builder and so like if you

Look at like kind of like the current state of enterprise it's either like through smart contracts or like some clone like a fork of aetherium that's run as like this custom thing and that's not really flexible like it kind of

Gives you two options one is like just use this like out of the blob out of the box solution just run this aetherium node and you can do like these things on it but you can't really do anything else or like you could write some contracts

But you're still like very limited in what you can do but it is like a very fast like deployment or you can like write your own enterprise blockchain from scratch but that's obviously going to be like a huge investment it might

Take you six months or a year to write this and then you might decide well hey this actually doesn't work for me and then you've wasted a year and so like what we've done with substrate is just it takes that development time from like

A year down to say like a couple months and if then you can still build like a custom solution and it still gives you like better primitives like interact with other parties and interact with like

Your off chain world so you know like a blockchain it is a state machine so it kind of like considers like it's state has like the sandbox thing right it doesn't really natively have a way to interact with the outside world and

Startups might be like pretty flexible to that and like where they can kind of like throw out they have or maybe that it's just like a startup that like wants to do a blockchain so they've built their whole startup around like this

Idea of putting this logic and storage and a bot chain but enterprises are their enterprises for a reason like they've been around for a long time they have a lot of processes and systems in place that they don't want to just like

Throw out the window and so like more historical boxing's don't give you very good tools to interact with those systems and that's something like we've built it's a substrate via something called off chain workers

Which we could do like a whole other episode on workers you have a whole suite of tooling and we know the likes of consensus for example they have their software tooling as well but I want to jump in there just for a second I hope

That's okay is the reason is that you talked about enterprise in the context of the technology and even parity is involved in this process but what's very interesting is that there are two parts

That are really catering for different needs in the enterprise sector so we have polka dot you know being that conservative pristine and clean chain that's emerging right now and then we had the lights of kasama that certainly

Is perhaps underestimated and what is actually planned to do what even governs really supporting as well in that sense with regard to enterprise potential experimentation and even beyond its conceptualization as a test net so if

You want to just reference ksama and also polka dot in the context of enterprise as well because that really does help paint a more replete picture of what is possible as the whole group of people who are supporting this

Is very robust network are all pushing for yeah well I think when it comes to enterprises specifically like polka dot is much more up their alley than kasama but Kusama cuz i was really interesting because it started out as like an

Unaudited release polka dots so this was back in August of last year so I guess almost a year ago and we hadn't really done like any artist on our coconut codebase we just kind of like put together this network

And threw it out there and it broke a couple times like we had to restart it twice and hard forked one or two one or two times as you started early yeah but we discovered like a lot of a lot of bugs a lot of especially like consensus

Issues consensus and networking memory leaks stuff like this that you can really only discover by having a network out there with a couple hundred validators and you might not discover like if you just do like a private test

Net with ten validate or something wrong and getting people to just like use the chain try to attack it throw stuff at it it we learned a lot by deploying Kusama and it's kind of kept this image of like you know like unaudited like

Bleeding-edge type of thing well the thing is like we we've been upgrading it as we've had our code audited absolutely for at least like the production launch of poccadot and so Kusama is now like very well audited I'm like that code

Like you said that so I can you just repeat that because people don't quite get that so yeah go ahead and repeat it because again I really want to enforce distribution of you allow cuz I'm going to get some of that attention that

Really hasn't had yeah yeah so like when when Kusama started like there was no audits like we just kind of like threw out this code base and like now it's very highly audited I think like polka dot has got undergone like seven or

Eight audits um before we launched and so this code that's in Kusama has like actually been highly audited but also of course test is in the wild like in production which kind of lets Kusama go to the next level which is let other

People use Kusama for the same reason that we used Kusama so like you might deploy a pair of chain to Kusama before you deploy your pair of chain to polka dot so book that would be like a very conservative like realize

There's a higher yeah like a higher barrier to entry you like to play a parity napoca and like that's for a good reason because conservative by nature and is going to just have like higher requirements makes

A lot of sense because you know four which will commit enterprise often there's an assumption that that's major corporations consortiums etc they are going to look directly they're going to buy parts and go straight to the real a

Chain to think about no question I would imagine but the reason I mentioned in this conversation they are about for summer is because even though we're referencing Enterprise perhaps in the context of that we say business because

I do think that small startups small businesses they may look actually towards kasama for the reasons you're talking about yeah absolutely I think there's like a bright future for Kusama has people start to deploy para

Chains and start using it it should actually be very soon like hopefully in the next couple months we'll start to see some para teams on Kusama yeah and when the states the emergence of more startups talking about the the

Core value of kasama in a different light as well so when we talk about things like the canary Network and test nets for polka dot do you think that narrative will change because summer in that you know will stand alone as its

Own independent main net operational system and technology that once again leads into its own robust Network yeah absolutely and like it's been kind of tough to express what Kusama is because it's fundamentally like a new thing

Right like it's not a test net but it's also not our like production polka dot like the goal that we were going for with polka dot and so it kind of sits in the middle right it's like a testing ground but it's not a test net and yeah

I think this idea of like a we've been calling it like a cannery nuts it's nice to express but I think it'll kind of just take shape and I think I think it already starting to to be honest there's a lot of people saying it really is it

And you know I'm looking forward to learning more about it to be quite honest and that's why I appreciate your input from parody because you do know a lot about all of these different technologies including Kusama

Now if we going back across from moment to polka-dot what I wanted to try and touch on just just broadly is Chane as opposed to para chains in you know context of infrastructure so that we can understand exactly what to the to

Do and how they perhaps relate also touka-sama in this context and also the substrate yeah so the relay chain is really like infrastructure for infrastructure and that would be like the other pair of chains in the system

And so pair of chains are meant to hold domain-specific logic so they're supposed to be specialized ball chains so this might be like a smart contract pair of chain or a stable coin pair of chain or like a governance pair of chain

Or something like this that's supposed to do like very specific things and then these pair of chains can communicate with each other via the primitives that the relay chain allows so it's like it's a little bit complicated but it's

Important to kind of make this distinction that like when you have chained like pair of chains that are communicating with each other they're not really like communicating through the relay chain what the relay chain

Does is it provides the context for these chains to send messages directly to each other so if you were to make like a comparison to a theorem you have different smart contracts and they can like interoperate with each other within

The EVM environment and they can do so because they share this context of like hey we're we have like the same validation rules if one of us gets attacked and like the state rolls back by like three blocks the other ones

Gonna also like rollback by three blocks so we're never like in the situation where I interact with another smart contracts and then smarter contract or I get attacked and then like now my message doesn't exist

Right from with those to them because they never rolled back before that message arrived and so that's what like the real a chain provides is that context but unlike a theory omit kind of like pulls them out where like in

Aetherium you have to execute all that logic and every block in polkadot it lets us execute this logic separately and then like the real a chain ties it together so so just jump in so there's more efficiency built in to the model

Also there's more autonomy and it's almost like removed that sort of analogy of the hub or the brain being you know the main chaining experience context and then you have that same high high the requirement for a lot of data needs you

Know look the duplication issue of they've all got to do working the same nice scenario that doesn't have to happen with polka dot from what you yeah it's really not like it's not like a hub in the sense that like things are going

Through it it it allows these para chains to send messages directly to each other like para chains a pair of chain without going through the relay chain but because of the rely chain they have these gear they have some guarantees

About those messages about their provenance about what created them about for the sender how it's going to be interpreted and knowing that like if my chain if I receive a message from another chain I know that that chain

Hasn't been reverted to a state where it hadn't sent that message right though that's going to really enable a much more efficient system overall if you know it's not that constant reliance on again that the main chain as it's called

In etherium I think that's really important for us to better understand because that surely is going to be just another reason why perhaps this will flourish because that's a significant development technologically from the

Lights with hearing for example yeah being able to like pulled it so it you're kind of looking at you know I scalability via specialization right so we we kind of take like you know we specialize these different block chains

So that they can each do their own thing and we let them communicate and a lot of people would call just those two things on their own interoperability and scalable but it's not really safe scalability

Because you have no guarantees about the security and that's really where polka dot comes in is like we look at these three things together not as and not as like isolated component so like if you think of interoperability as message

Passing those messages are really only as valuable as the context that they're sent in and so polka dot is really providing like the security to enable the context to have meaningful message passing which then enable scalability

Because it lets you specialize without having to be worried about the other without being worried about the security of the other chains that you're communicating with I say well again it leads back to that argument of being

Pragmatic without all of those things overlapping into intersecting there's really no point to building out this whole holistic approach because they all need to you know collaborate to do the the job intended that is provide for you

Know real use cases in the end so look like go ahead I can just like interrupt you like this is where I cut some of it in like enterprise stuff this is where like enterprises and like startups can kind of just like come together in a

Sense um because has a specialized blockchain in the polka dot network you have a lot of control over over your state transitions and like who authors them so like um you know like a more like bleeding edge like startups chain

Or something might have like a proof of state network or they let anybody like kind of like join as a we call them Co later to produce blocks for this pair of chain and like submit them to the network but who cannot itself like has

The relay chain only really care is it that it's getting like one block from one of these parish chains it doesn't want to get spammed with like 50 blocks when it really only has room for one block right and so but it's really up to

The pair of chains as a side like well how do I decide who gets to submit these blocks and so you could have like like I said like when he's bleeding edge kind of like more decentralized focused startup chains that wants to like use a

Proof of stake so I to make a completely permission less and let anybody submit these blocks but you can also have like an enterprise chain within the network where it's using like proof of authority it's decided like these are the nodes

That have the right to author blocks and like submit thumbs of polka dot and this actually like it breaks the enterprise thing out of the sandbox so like so far we've only seen enterprises use like these kind of like you know very like

Private blockchains you don't have any any interaction with the outside entities even yeah this kind of gives you like this blend or you can have like your private chain that decides like well who's the authority who gets to

Finalize gugus to authorize sorry not finalized who gets to author blocks and propose them but it also gives you this interface to the other like public chains so that you could still get the benefit of interacting with but that

Okay I want to jump in there because that's exciting what you're saying so essentially if we look at that quadrant once again I talked about this in the past of the the private in the permit the public that permissioned and the

Permission list you really or all that those that parody have underpinned through your through the work you've done a means in which polka dot can cater for all in that quadrant so me for example if I have an enterprise endeavor

That I want to pursue utilizing polka dot I have all those options built in and that's what you're sort of saying when it comes to okay I can use a pair of chain but I can do that with commissioning in mines or I can do that

With permissionless structure that's really really quite exciting for the whole spectrum of potential in business contexts so dimension and even beyond that you know for experimentation for your young startups as well now what I

Was going to wait to later but this is a perfect segue we've see the likes of my arm baseline for example trying to establish and I said itself as what they call it the cookbook for trying to establish

Aetherium as a main net middle we're trying to integrate more enterprise through their open source collaborative working group essentially that's what it is so you see they also pushing more in

That direction already we see polka dots through these kinds of built-in infrastructural approaches doing so and optionality built in from the start so what are your thoughts on the likes of etherium for example moving the

Direction we know consensus is backing this idea we know that they're also Pro enterprise and pro software and tooling but again you see you guys and I can see that you know that you've been building this for some time so you

Have the capacity right there you have an established baseline but you certainly can do everything at baseline and now hoping to offer yeah I like to be honest I am I've heard of baseline but I'm not super familiar with their

Structure like what they're trying to do like can you just give me like more background just essentially it's it's a core team of people chaired by John and I put some links in below or let you know further but essentially the

Objective there is to try and provide a working group to better enable and enfranchise enterprise integration into aetherium so there's a working group of people that's constantly growing includes more enterprise agents as well

And it includes more startups in that working endeavor and it really does directly correlate with consensus they also fund it etherium devs are also directly involved there is direct lines into this from etherium but their agenda

Is to basically open it up so that a public permissionless system can in franchise more enterprise on the etherium network that's really the agenda and they treat it as what they've deemed as a main net middleware approach

So that's the agenda but again it says in our working group it's open source where anyone can take part as again that cookbook and opener for recipe writers I suppose so that's the idea but when I look at you guys I look at something a

Little different in that this has come from an organized organized team this has come from technology builders sort of in stealth for some time so when I hear you say I as an enterprise party can actually choose already now that's

Interesting to me because that's exactly what the baseline are trying to enable through these new initiatives and startups and working groups when you're working group is really the team itself yeah I mean I of course like I can't

Speak too much for them but yeah I mean like we're really hoping I mean we're hoping like we're actively building to create these tools to make it easy to integrate with substrate based chains and eventually polka-dot

And yeah I mean we had like we have a small team internally that's like working specifically on like enterprise integrations and like that kind of tooling and support that they need well yeah I hope we see like a lot of

Solutions out there yeah and it's good to say that it's been on the agenda for some time it is part of that internal infrastructure and especially knowing that you have a team that's assigned specifically for that

Role now I wanted to touch on the substrate a little bit more because it's much more public now actually if people can go to different links go different websites and look at the full scope of what's now saying to emerge as a very

Exciting star starting point where we see I'm not sure the numbers and hopefully you can tell us but this there's several of them now emerging where people can go and look into these startups recently I spoke with a color

For example M&R it's just one of many what are your thoughts on the quality of startups that are now starting to engage be listed on the substrate experiment with technology utilize the power chain yeah I mean we've had like a really big

Like uptick in people using substrate in the last say six months but also like should really give like a shout out to the people who have been building on this for like over a year and like a kala and lemon are kind of fall into

That bucket where they've been like not just building on this but like actually contributing back to the code base for well over a year and that was like back in the time where it was kind of like changing up like breaking on a weekly

Basis with like breaking changes and so it's come like a really long way and I think like them like the strides that we've made and the maturity of substrate and like just how powerful it is is now just being reflected than the teams that

Are building on it and yeah I mean like you mentioned some of them and they have more and more because I have a few that I write down been done out of sequence in my notes but I'm thinking of some for example plasm or killed or a place yeah

Go on I'd love to hear some one from you rather than me list these out one of the ones that centrifuge is another one there's several that are really coming for now maybe looks like it to talk about

Then yeah I mean like you're kind of getting like some of the big ones and then like I mean we have iOS coin they're called radical building on substrate we have Moonbeam as actually like a really really cool one that's

Like interesting like connection with aetherium so it's you could just take your aetherium smart contracts and deploy it directly on those Moonbeam chain without any kind of modification so instead of like talking to an

Ethereal client you're actually talking with the substrate clients underneath but you can just deploy like the same exact contract how's it yeah an asshole I can retweet them actually recently so he things really excited as well and

Again as someone who's the founder of web 3 as someone who's leading out you know the hole and the ambitious approach of poccadot it's something that people start to notice when they see Moonbeam introduced now we own the likes of many

Others come forth as well are there any other startups that are really picking your interest you know not just the technologists but just really look into what their startup focuses or their vertical for example ah yeah I'm on the

Spy here to be continued what will you know notes in well both have a look and we'll put some notes in below of some others to look at in the future now just a quick rundown for those who would like to look more into

Parity I don't want to discuss this in detail but these are some of the I guess that the claims made in terms of being cutting edge as a technological team so you say you're cutting edge cryptographers you have a cellular

System you peer-to-peer tech do centralized consensus architecture we've talked about on chain governance we've talked you know a little bit about and hinted there the proof of authority is referenced and you've also mentioned

Proof of stake is valued by your prop and then one that's interesting there's privacy now our theory ins mentioned in this context as well but I wanted to better understand how you do cater for privacy when it comes to enterprise

Needs because they're not always gonna want everything on chain yeah I mean like I mean that's having something on China versus off chain there's really only part of like the privacy equation real picture

So yeah I mean when it comes to off chain stuff like the like our off chain workers are probably like the most advanced in the decentralized like say block chain ecosystem and like they actually allow for non-deterministic

Tasks like random number generation or like HTTP requests that you wouldn't really be able to do like uh normal blockchain so this could interact with something that's completely external when it comes to on chain it's

Definitely like going to be a focus moving forward we don't have like a ton of like the zero knowledge proof stuff baked into polka dot but we do have teams like that are building on polka dot or building on substrate with this

Stuff in mind I think like one zero chain have to double check that now that's okay I think that's important that you will see those experimentations that's the whole pot premise I suppose of that really change up our chain

Approach is that you don't control in any way the initiatives themselves or the endeavors you simply provide that underlying technology for the possibility and for the verticals so it's a fair point you're making it's

Good that you don't know what everyone's building because it's just growing so rapidly now with regard to funding in runway I wanted to talk about that because when if they're indeed there I see oh they didn't necessarily raise a

Huge amount of capital if you do some comparisons with other ideas of the day you know we know that the lights are up to a billion dollars was raised and that certainly wasn't the case with aetherium now one thing that does provide a lot of

Confidence for many people looking into polka-dot is they're organized approach to I guess a long term runway or a long runway and also strong funding and capital can you do get to give us sort of some sort of assurance that that is

The case and that there is you know a strong capital base that underlies and underpins the technology itself yeah I can't say much more detail than that there is underlies it at least for like the company side of it I can talk a

Little bit about like the sustainability of poccadot itself it goes like course we don't just want to rely on say getting like more funding coming in mmm so like one of the things that we've put into polkadot is this concept of a

Treasury that can actually like accumulate funds and the chain like these funds belong to the chain and it's up to governance to distribute them and so these companies come out of like the inflation or like block reward if you

Will it's really like a an arrow reward but I think that's going into like the details of proof of stake and consensus and everything so it was considered a block reward for now but like what do you actually do with those rewards and

Like some of them have to go to validators but also like not as much have to go to validators as an approved work network because you're not relying on that for like for keeping them honest if you will and so abortion that goes

Into this thing that we have a Treasury that's actually on chain and the decision-making is on chain so polka-dot through its governance can decide like how to apply these funds and I think like that's really that's really

Innovative and like having like a self-sustaining like a self-funded chain I mean it allows new things to come into being that didn't exist before so like we have this idea of like a person or a company like owning things but we don't

Have a concept of like a blockchain owning things right and so we have like a Treasury that's on chain it's managed by the stake holders of the blockchain and like since we have an interoperable Network and we're going to have bridges

To say like Bitcoin or aetherium the governance of poccadot could actually decide to like deploy some of these funds from the Treasury to to like take a stake in another network like right if you're more something and like if I will

See a TV we'll see that kind of thing given that you know yeah I mean like that's kind of what a college doing right like what they're decentralized sovereign wealth funds right like use much of them the other day and like

Using the interoperability of poccadot and like their own like Pera chain Treasury they can actually like a choir stake in other networks and so I like and knowing that doing it would imply that the technologies they are even from

They're the original source of the technology itself which is polkadot yeah but like you know like they is a little bit of like a slippery pronoun here because I'm not talking about be a call a team or like the company or foundation

Or anything I'm gonna like be a call it chain itself like actually taking ownership or like having stake in another network and that's like a new thing that didn't exist before okay so just to be clear today as in a Carla are

Unable to do that because Eisley because the technology that has been created through parody and through polka dot yeah exactly okay let's that's an innovation in itself right there the fact that there

Can be this crossover you know and interesting other platforms that surely also suggest more of this notion of competition and collaboration as opposed to competition yeah I mean like that and that just goes back into

Like I guess like the scalability of the industry as a whole like I think a lot of people well I don't want to generalize but you know like there is this kind of like fundamental assumption that there's going to be a lot of change

In the world there's not just going to be like one blockchain to rule them all if you will and watching is like fundamentally they rely on like their value for their security and so value is by definition a limited resource and so

When we just start to have like independent ball chains that are secured by their own value independently you're just going to be spreading thin and this tends to follow like a power-law distribution like most things to

Naturally and so it leaves like 95% of chains very vulnerable to attack from like a larger chain that could easily acquire a controlling stake in the validation and so by pulling all of these chains together

It does allow collaborative environments because their value actually like adds it as to the security of everybody not just there's not in competition with other chains that's not trying to stay valuable so that it can resist attack

From somebody else just adding security of the entire system and Joe in doing that successfully that's where it sets these layer ones apart from those that aren't successful and don't manage to create I guess a very holistic

Sort of technology that can coordinate all of the power chain successfully and attract users and attract developers and attract teams you've done all of that as part of the parody team now what this is a great segue into the question of

Consensus with regard to Joe Joe Lubin his work there his association with that the original theorem team and also Gavin Gavin being that the founder of web 3 being absolute core component if not the most important person when it comes to

Building out parody when it comes to be a builder building up polka dot and even beyond that you know the brainchild perhaps you know in many aspects even of the original iterations of etherium so my question more is about the agenda for

Joe the consensus team you can't really suppose too much there I'm sure but you certainly can are aware I mention of the connection initially between Joe and Gavin and now clearly they're going after different layer one technologies

The building out different things Joe's not the technologist Gavin is so what are your thoughts on the way in which the market share has lent you know has moved towards consensus the network effects have moved towards aetherium

When we see the likes of parody Gavin polkadot really sign to come on now yeah well I mean like I think there's like a few things I could say about this I mean first of all like I wasn't around back in those days I was busy riding my bike

And so I I don't know like a lot of that stuff right like I wasn't there and I don't want to speak for them I mean the etherium was just like before polkadot like on a time scale right I go several

Years before polkadot I would question the network effects and how large they are because I still for aetherium ok just for like the boxing industry in general and like what we consider to be like I think a lot of people have

Already declared like well this is like the biggest so therefore it's the winner and I really take issue with that because the whole industry is very small and so I mean I think we can kind of like compare that with like like if you

Look at like some of the like failures and what they've done to the industry versus like another more mature industry so like I mean we look at like hacks and stuff that's like you know over a hundred million dollars is considered

Like massive like a huge hit so the ecosystem and it is like I don't I don't want to pretend that's not like a lot money it is but also like I mean like my first job out of university was in aerospace and like when we talk about

Like commission failure we're talking about a satellite that's like five or ten billion dollars and then of course there's like repercussions from these kind of failures but the industry like keeps going and it keeps evolving right

And it's hard to imagine like a five billion dollar failure in defy right and you know it's still so new but Joe are also talking about experimentations right from the outset for both of these and we haven't really seen a lot of

Empirical evidence of significant uptake beyond the scope of the crypto sphere so and that's kind of what you're alluding to but my question more so is about from this point forth which do you think is really going to showcase some of those

In that imperative of seeing that adoption be real seeing the real world inclusion of businesses interacting beyond speculation obviously that we see that's right crypto in a scenario where there is that true and proven

Evidence of the utility token being used for example that often you know fires the the value of these startups you know that's the core engine itself right now as you've alluding to we see a lot of planning a lot of hopes and dreams also

Built in to one of the DFO movement for example aetherium but what's under the hood really and what what about the future yeah so I mean I think like where I was going with I was like this whole industry is still very small and if

We're going to be successful we can't just say like well we we've captured like this percent of aetherium developers on there you know I bought there like a theory on developers constitutes X percent of all blockchain

Developers or something it's it's really just like looking at such a small piece of the picture and if this industry is going to be successful in like actually achieving its goals of decentralizing global power systems not just financial

Systems but just like centralized power in general we're going to need like 10x or a hundred X or a thousand X more developers than we have now and so I don't look at any established group and take it for granted that that is like

The network effect because I think if we're successful in quick we have to bring in a lot more people that aren't involved now and then it becomes well which network do they go to well you know much respect to you because you

Could easily become a maxim let's just like so many others and even in your role you're making the point that you're not and I'm certainly not either and I can understand why you're not because again it's the technology that needs to

Speak it needs to prove itself now in that context you know in pre chats I've had and in public would know if they've watched the interviews I'm very much a proponent of the real world technology and energy web is one that I had

Supported for that exact reason now they are also have been driven although been very interested in the polka dot network interested in the technology there for good reason obviously given that there's so much potential for enterprises to

Essentially capital on established technology looking at the the depth of oven I'll be infrastructure that's already there many enterprises don't want to you know start from scratch and they want either they don't

Have the skill sets so I'm referencing this only as an example for real evidence of in enterprise today there's not many right now that are you know looking at or utilizing the polka dot network in some way or a powertrain

Today in this time as we speak now that are already moving that direction so energy because of web in my opinions one and that's just my opinion what are your thoughts on this today in terms of that empirical proof of moving just beyond

The tinkering into something where you know it moves beyond into real validators into real companies into real global networks that are now engaging with the ecosystem I mean well we've already seen kind of

Like real companies engaging I mean like Kusama is now I think four hundred validators and a lot of those do come from like companies who are who have built like staking invalidation or mining companies around watching and I

Think that's kind of like the first wave is right you have to have like this infrastructure of reliable service providers who can actually run this in a fault-tolerant reliable way and then like the technology has to be built on

Top of that and then just like you mentioned kasama because if they're the validators in there legitimate as you explained but aren't they still within the crypto space or are they actually coming from the more mainstream sector

Because that's where I'm interested in as well is are you getting some of the inclusion the security creators as such with the validation are they coming from also sources outside of the crypto sphere because when we start to see more

Of that that's when it gets really interesting right no I mean like most of of auditors are you know I express a fact to like the boshane industry yeah I'm trying to think of like our other yeah I don't have it all stuffed in my

Head that's like I I mean you really shouldn't because there aren't that many to be honest you know because we're still so early but what's clear is with the examples we've talked about this on gee web there's the possibility of

Looking into them to see how they are trying doing the credits and certainly Kazama has already built that internally with regard to the transparency on to ask you better get hub many reports to come back about just how robust the

Repository is you know one of the best out there arguably but in terms of access given that your company is this completely open source what's the full rundown on the nature of the github yeah I mean like all of our protocol work and

Tooling is open sourced so like her deployment tooling substrate polka dot polka dot J asked which is like one of the tools like build wallets or front-ends and like actually interface with polka dot and substrate this is all

Open source so yeah they're all open public repos as it should be and do you want to comment on just how much it's being done because there's there's there's repos and there's repos you know there's submissions and then there's a

You know great deal of content from certain teams do you think you stand out compared to the majority which majority about like you mean of other watching clients I do yet or even not as clients that even just other startups other

Platforms or other parties using other platforms just more generally when you do comparative analyses of different github standards yeah I mean I don't have the numbers right in front of me so I wasn't really prepared like I

Couldn't maybe maybe only the next one can come with stats but yeah I mean like we have like a huge developer team right so I were able to push a lot of changes and I mean I think substrate and poke it out together are over a million lines of

Code now because that's a lot and you know I do have a quick look at the guitar I'll put a link below it's really just to give people confidence that there's a lot of time being put into the code itself and just building this out

It's not just fluff as some have been in the past no no Joe one of the things I did is have a bit of a look at people you're interested in and startups you're interested in and so I looked at some of the people you follow and that kind of

Thing so we talked about Gavin is one of them but you also support it seems people at Andreas Antonopoulos arathor he's Vitalik as well hope that was interesting mix of people so what do you

What do you look for when you look at the crypto space more generally when it comes to quality what does that mean for you when in terms of people um yeah that's a good question how did how did you get these followers

Oh I decide look at your Twitter okay look at who you paint the kind of people that you seems like yeah I I'm quite limited in my uh my following there yeah I mean I would say I look for people who reason from first principles about like

What we're trying to build and yeah don't get lost in like just some like adoption metric and I would say like I don't agree with everything to everybody I follow says or anything but I think like like the people you mentioned are

Often reasoning from the first principles of like what are we trying to to design and like what does it see centralized I should mean and what are we trying to create and I think like yeah I mean like Eric is very focused on

Like finance and economics of it but actually like I heard of Bitcoin like back in like 2011 or 12 because like Eric is a like friend of a friend and I was like kind of in in those circles like back in the day when I first heard

Of this but yeah I would say like that's those are like the primary things is like who's whose reasoning from first principles about what we're designing and I would say just like to turn this back towards like parody and like I

Don't have insight into like other organizations but what what I think is really cool is like we see we see a lot of a lot of like blockchain like culture kind of talked about like well we want to create this like decentralized like

Utopia or something but there's not really like any substance to it besides like PowerPoint slides and like nice talks and then like you see this other end of like people who are really pushing for adoption at any cost

We're like yeah well we got all these users but it's really like well we just like kind of forward to theory I'm like started this private network and now we're saying that like this company is using Bakhtin or something but they

Haven't really like done like a massive step towards they're not thinking from like the first principles of like what does decentralization what are we trying to actually create who are we trying to empower it's a really good point you

Know they didn't drive from the Y and then perhaps like a Y yeah I mean like just till I kind of finish this like what's really exciting about working at a parity and like I'm polka dot is like we do talk a lot about like the societal

Impact and like the philosophical drivers behind what we're building but we actually create it we don't just go from like we actually take that like philosophy and we put it into code oh yeah I don't see a lot of people like

Actually bridge that gap you certainly don't and that really does go back to leading the conversation of web three across to parity and then building into polka dots so you have the whole process you know the full evidence there of how

You approach this as a very you know significant team of many now one of the other things I found interesting is that you also do your own podcast and I want to give you a plug because it is high-quality the people you talk to all

The way from Gavin to others as well known as the relay chain podcast do you want to just comment on what you do there why you also do that as part of your role yeah so we started this about a year ago and I guess like why me I

Mean I like I was kind of interested in it and like we got a few people try it out and I don't think anybody else was that interested in it and it just kind of like fell to me I enjoyed I enjoyed like I kind of like researching and like

Going in depth on what other people were doing and like you get kind of lost in like you know especially gonna start up like I don't want to like pin parity but like startups in general or very like heads down and you're just trying to

Like build build build and just like through the effort of like doing the research and like going out to talk with somebody else I know like you're obviously like very prepared for this and on your research it takes a lot of

Time and like but it's also rewarding to like put that work in to do like a good good interview and really appreciate all your effort to be honest because not every party does that not every team and your you have the

Skill sets right they have the knowledge base as well and you are technological so we really do appreciate that Joe for the time that you do spend and it allows for people to have that free access to information because again there are a

Lot of parties in crypto also forcing people to pay for that through private access and so again that's why I want people to know about what you do you're literally in that in the team providing this information for all of us yeah I

Mean we don't do any kind of like peds guests or either like us paying them or them paying us we don't we don't do any of that and I'd actually say like a lot of the episodes kind of take like different twists it doesn't have like

Super like there are some podcast that's like you know I want to like explain how this technology works or something and and unreal AG and I've really done both like talking about like how technology or concept works but also like more like

Cultural or philosophical episodes that have been really fun and so I just try to find say interesting people and it's been like it's kind of like a it's almost like cheating like getting to talk to people that like if there's like

Really interesting people that you want to talk to you it's kind of like an excuse like hey I have a podcast I feel that same way that's like it's such a great way also to learn I'm sure you appreciate that as well just to have

Them there and certainly even in this interview having the chance to speak with you so once again I'll put links in below because all the work we do their job really does matter and because you put all those hours in and as you know

As well it's not easy necessarily to elicit some of the key developments with the people you do talk to but because you do it does deserve that recognition now just finally we've touched on so much but I wanted to just really allow

People the chance to understand how they can engage more how can they learn more you we know that your podcast is one but what are other ways in which we can connect better with parody polka-dot with level 3 etc yeah so if you just

Want to like learn there's like the polka dot wiki like wiki top polka dot network and there's like all of our social media stuff but I would definitely recommend like going into our public chats so we have we use riot and

Like I can send you a link to put in the notes but we have like a lot of public rooms like polka dot polka dot watercooler Kusama water-cooler validator rooms substrate technical where we help out people developing on

Substrate and i think like what's really cool is like these are public chats and like gavvers actually really active in them and all of our core developers are really active in them so i you can go and like ask your question and you'll

Get an answer from God directly Wow it doesn't get better than that and I don't have some of those links so I'll make sure from through you will put them below so the people can have access because one of the things we notice is

That telegrams seems to be a common sort of thread for many of the starts building on in theory em but there seems to be a lot of focus on places like this called and even right as you mentioned others where there is new modes of

Communication and new platforms being used yeah I think there are some telecom groups but um riah is definitely our main focus and where you'll find most of our developers right okay well joy thank you so much

For this interview the focus was initially really just to provide introduction into parody we've done a lot more than that really I think here we've touched on so much from kasama all the way through to fund the

Fundamentals of the relay chain and Popa dive we've looked and we've explored I guess what's evolving with the substrate we've hinted on some of those startups I did want to also mention some others I

Mentioned just out of respect just a reference plasm is another one I if I didn't mention there's also actually I won't mention anymore I'd to be fair because I don't want to single out any but I do encourage people to go and look

Into more of what is out there I'll put a link for the substrate so people can just sift through information and perhaps look into them more but Joe thank you so much once again for providing really this is introduction

Hopefully we can keep going you know in time while we break pieces down into bite-sized chunks so that we can focus on key areas of development key areas of focus as parody as and as polka-dot continue to show

They are not going anywhere in fact they doing the office that they're building and they're staying and they're claiming their position and their state with a pun intended as they prove themselves by the blockchain and even beyond that yeah

Thank you for having me and look forward to more these no worries Thank You Sanjay

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