Ocean Protocol | Decentralized Data Economy | BlockchainBrad | Unlock Data for AI

by birtanpublished on September 7, 2020

hello it's Brad Lori or blockchain Brad and today we're speaking about all things ocean Protocol to do that we have two co-founders in the hot seat today we have both Trent and Bruce here to really clarify and explain everything about

Ocean thank you gentlemen for being here it's a pleasure too much likewise obviously it's a privilege to be able to speak with two cofounders of ocean protocol this is the best way that you can get informed information informed

Data about this protocol and what they stand for for disclosures this is entirely free this is all about providing the public with information that is all about once again trying to explain what a set up

Stands for and what they plan to do and it's not conditioned by any sponsorship of any kind so gentlemen let's get stuck into it firstly the statements that we see in your literature on your websites trying to explain what you stand for in

A nutshell it says that you're essentially a complex decentralized data protocol network marketplace three really important in terms that encapsulate your value would you like to extrapolate on that a little bit so we

Can have a better understanding of what Ocean protocol fundamentally is yeah so for Ocean I think it's all about giving people more power in a data economy the world is heading towards more digital products it's it's heading to a place

Where a lot of data is being captured and most of that data is not being monetized and our vision is that the data is owned by the data owners where their individuals or enterprises and then there becomes a fluid and liquid

Market for the buying and selling of those data as well as AI services so that the playing field gets leveled for everyone and not just the large companies like Google Facebook and Amazon mm-hmm and obviously that's sort

Of music to many people's ears in the millennial sort of area because we want to do to change the narrative we want data to be of value for more people in a more democratic sense trend I wanted to ask you in the context

Is talking about can you explain a bit more about how you do unlock the data though especially in the context of AI absolutely yes sir ocean is designed to unlock data in three ways one of them is to make it really easy to to build

Marketplaces and Commons so in this way there can be dozens hundreds of marketplaces that are selling the data with focusing on difficult etcetera yet at same time those marketplaces are not controlling the data that is still in

The control of the people who are owned the data that's the first the second way is by making it where people can and actually loop to the first it's bringing computer the data so if I have data that I want to monetize or share with others

Rather than having to download that data what if all they really want the data for is to build an AI model or could do some analytics with some form they can have that compute running locally so I hold my data they get I get the benefit

Of selling the data to others but I think today the computers running side by side with the data so it sort of sort of you can have your cake and eat it too and the third way to unlock data is by using Network rewards to reward people

Who supply data to the Commons so just like Bitcoin network gives Bitcoin tokens to people who add to the security the Bitcoin network and security defined by hash trade according to the Bitcoin network in ocean ocean network gives

Network rewards to people who supply data to the to the network in a common distraction right challenge oh yeah so I used to jump in there train that it also explains and we're going to talk about the metrics later but that would explain

Why you have such a significant amount of tokens in your supply not particularly not so much just now but in the future there's a substantial amount and you're increasing supply as you move forward is that also because of this

Inbuilt incentivization and reward system it's exactly yet that yes the majority of our tokens are dedicated to this a third way of unlocking which is basically essentially people doing work in the network to supply data to others

So yes Brian okay now gentlemen one of the things that's fundamental to understand your startup is to understand the problem that precedes it now either of you could you comment on

With regard to data what the core problems were that you foresaw perhaps when you started this initiative maybe I'll start with this from my perspective so I spent about 20 years in the world live AI beforehand and going back to the

Late 90s working for national defense and then on the heels of that in the world of computer chip design and you know initially if you wanted to do AI research to build new AI algorithms to sort of make an accurate classifier or

Regression basically models you would basically spend you know one year three years do a PhD whatever to try to develop these models but what people discovered was instead of doing all that research just have more data have not

Just to export data but 10x 100x 2000 x-bar data on the error rates can go from 40 percent to 20 to 10 to 5 to 12.1 percent and this makes all the difference in the world so more data means more accurate

AI models to the point where these models can be deployed into production and this was kind of a realization in a book the mid 2000s by the AI community and since then you know companies that really got this started doubling down

And then trying to get more and more and more data but we've ended up at this time now where those companies I really have lots of data and lots of AI expertise there's just a handful of them and they become incredibly powerful

Varieties put some googles to the world like I read into the literature that you have and it was very clear that there is only that handful as well-trained but how do we also ensure the quality of the data as well it's one thing to be able

To access significant amounts of data but to also have quality of data and trusted data yes so with the notion we have the key value that we think things can't be censored so censorship resistance so we need to square with

That right so we can't have things like some expert committee that says this is Chloe data and this isn't and we looked around at different ways to sort of assess you know should we use information criterion things like AIC or

MDL etc and what we realized was the best thing is an economic signal people treat data as quality if they download it if they use it if they pay for it etc so with that within notion we have it where if you think data is of quality

Then you will stay clinic and that's towards your future expectation of people downloading it etc or buying it right so that's really the common side and then in the buying side if you're not selling quality data then people

Won't be paying for that's an interesting point so it's socially determined essentially what the core degree of quality is now what about you Bruce obviously you come with your own experience and your background is

Extensive as well well it's you your viewpoint in why this needs to exist why we need to have this decentralized data solution I think the main thing is that you know given all the hacks that have happened around the world I think

There's nobody in the world who has not been a victim of a hack you see that anybody who has kind of centralized data repositories are at risk of being a honeypot at the same time you have movements like gdpr

Where governments are trying to give people back control over their data and it's at the confluence of these two kind of tensions where we we saw along with you know working in the past in big change EB by building decentralized a

Database that there was a strong need to give people kind of an awareness as well as control and of a way to monetize what is rightfully theirs so as soon as for instance you put some data into Facebook or Google or whatever you you lose

Complete transparency about how it's being used how they're reselling its advertisers etc you have no transparency with ocean you have the you know the vision and the capability in the future to see who has access your data you can

Control under what conditions it gets shared and you can also put a price on it all right I think that something that can appeal to anybody right and also we're going to talk about your pricing model because that's one part of your

Whole ecosystem that is very transparent and is very planned the gentleman I did want to touch on something that Bruce is alluding to and that is things like Cambridge and Whitaker I mean arguably this couldn't have come

At a better time your platform your protocol brother given all of the problems that we see inherent with centralized data control yeah I mean I think that we're coming up to a wave pardon the pun

A wave of awareness from the community and and the world that systems that use us as the product any free product means that you're the product this type of thing these systems are unsustainable there

Was a tweet I forget from who it came from it said data is not the new oil beta is uranium and what that means is that only the people who have extremely high security and should be handling this stuff otherwise it should be in the

Hands of the people who truly control us and I think that that is something that is important and what ocean kind of pushes towards that if you hold data you better have a very good reason to have it otherwise make sure that the

True rightful owner has complete transparency and control over it it's a very good point and also it just shows the value of data itself in the modern era as well many people don't realize just how how valuable data actually is

Now with regard to some of the core components demand that's also very important understanding that the fundamentals understand their technology in a nutshell maybe we could start with you Trent how would you describe the the

Essential components you know because you talked about breaking down those data silos but how do you do that and with what key features absolutely so at the very very heart of ocean is decentralized orchestration now what

Does that mean it basically means allowing these AI compute pipelines or general compute pipelines to happen where the step 1 step 2 step 3 is all orchestrated in this decentralized fashion so for

Example ocean overseas grabbing a data set say from Amazon storage say s3 cleaning that data set say with Amazon ec2 compute maybe storing it again using some decentralized storage say file claim when it comes out and and then

Training a data like a model say using a decentralized solution let's say fetch a I or singularity net etc etc so ocean is orchestrating all these steps step one step two step three and that's really the heart of it now a big subset of that

Is access control so ocean has a rich way to do permissioning or I can choose who can access what data went right so that's the very heart and then on top of it it has these layers on top to make it easy to do things like

Builds data marketplaces builds data Commons etc etc right I've read into the tiers it's quite comprehensive and we can always do another interview and really build upon this and explore those tiers separately but also in with regard

To your orchestration model I want to ask you about the dag because it's referenced and I wanted to try and better understand what that means in the context of ocean yeah so when I say a a compute PI plan that's basically a chain

Right step one step two step three but of course you don't have to have just a chain you can actually have tasks that are branching off in parallel which takes you from a chain to add eggs and write a drunken acyclic graph it's

Really about that but ocean itself is actually built in solidity that running on EVM and in the interest of performance our users our data scientists et cetera they will not be happy with the performance of things

Like during a minute so we have deployed our own federated Network POA Style Network Riya has the road map with regard to start starting with utilized EVM and obviously progressing forward into your own robust network and so that

Its operational regardless of EVM yes so you know so there's we have five four it's in a road map port 100 two three four five part one and two and three are three ways to unlock data part four and five are are towards the community and

Full decentralization so we have shipped v1 in beta basically which is along making having the core access control as well as making it easy to build marketplaces etc that is already running on an ocean dedicated POA network that

Runs EVM where we are working on v2 and v3 and then v4 v5 include things like permissionless fully permissionless so that's part of the overall goal and vision and finally there are starting to get technologies out there that are both

Permissionless and having vc performance right and barista want to go to you for a moment there's so much in trans comments firstly want to ask you about that interplay between commissioned and permissionless systems you know and what

Your plan is for the future of obviously business is part of your roadmap and thus permission is highly relevant but also in in doing this tiered system and the CEO deed approach you've also built in agreements as I understand in

Conjunction with the orchestration model so can you talk us through the importance of those I'm not sure the term I can't remember but there were special agreements that help through the steps of the dyeing process and that and

Then also from there can you talk about you know how your plan to build out the permission the permission list system sure so I think from a just a conceptual perspective ideally in in these types networks

Particularly enocean but in other networks like Bitcoin as well you have different layers of kind of actors working with the network so for instance in the pointing of the miners who operate the nodes you have people who

Are exchanging which are on ramps you have you know the core developers and stuff like that and for ocean the main thing that we want to kind of have is at each of those layers it is as decentralized as possible where the

Incentives as well as the design of that strata is tending towards a kind of a disbursement of power so that knows that no single layer you have one single kind of entity or actor in control we see this for instance in Bitcoin where you

Have you know like what say six developers running it or REM checks in code before it goes in you have whatever 10,000 node operators you have X number of exchanges all other stuff and so for permission and permission list it's more

Nuanced in the sense because right now for ocean what we're designing it for is so that on each layer where there can be kind of user interaction or value that if it gives permission is possible now when you get up to the layer of what we

Call l3 which is the application layer that's where you're going to have marketplaces that are branded health data supply chain the data IOT data and that's where you could have some aspects of centralization because a brand

Is powerful so if you have with a iot marketplace maybe from let's say iota it could be something that is gaining market share and mine share where it becomes a kind of an area of centralized control however because the staff below

That is fully decentralized if I'm a data provider and for instance the iota marketplace is not playing fair I should just take my inventory off the iota marketplace and put it onto a different marketplace because at the lower levels

I have full control over it so for me that's that's the most important kind of aspect of ocean and this whole movement of decentralization is that people at the lower people can control their content and their property at a lower

Level and not be dependent on centralized sources to market and manage their information arrived so at the very fundamental that that base layer is decentralize by core design and I think you know the explanation of this and and

Also the considerations you've made in designing this and building the architecture is about changing the narrative so that essentially the data is first and foremost decentralized from the outset now with regard to some of

The other things I want to talk to you training about some of the claims with regard to privacy and also with regards to data sharing as well there to work terms that come up a lot you talk us through those and with regard to the

Value that that ocean brings absolutely so privacy of course goes hand-in-hand with GDP are that European data regulations and a core tenant that we had from from the very beginning was to make sure that no potentially personally

Identifiable information could be on chain so the part that is on chain is really the handshaking for the permissions right and this person feature this person and so on and so then as Bruce was mentioning the data

Itself is stored by the people that are selling it or sharing it and then the other part of what the data is the metadata right and this metadata crucially also is not unchained because metadata itself is good how PII great

Could have personally identifiable information so that is actually stored by the people running the different Commons marketplaces or price data marketplaces and so on so maybe by analogy ocean has

An architecture a lot like the DNS where the DNS has two layers the the core layer is a simple thin database that is a mapping from domain names IPS versus like say amazon.com 2 1 2 2 3 4 5 5 6 etc and then one little above you have

These different marketplaces buying and selling domain data like Gandhi done at Bowdoin et cetera ocean is similar so we've got this very very thin on blockchain that has the handshaking and then we'll have one level of oh people

Can be building these marketplaces and the marketplaces themselves are storing the metadata appropriately and so they have to account for proper privacy controls of the metadata they themselves so crucially do not control the the core

Data blogs etc that are being bought and sold so that's basically how we reconcile how we tread the needle of privacy and blockchain and and the end result is that the people with the data themselves that are selling it etc they

Control it all basically and ocean is not exposed does not expose any PII and the marketplaces themselves have just enough data to ensure very good search ability discoverability of data and obviously the marketplace is something

We will talk about more because that's a key value prop for the protocol now bris in that context can you just clarify for us whether or not you're an agnostic protocol because that's something that I think needs to be you know explored upon

More because the EVM is something that trainers mentioned before but I'm assuming that you can also work with other block chains and the other other variants as well yeah ocean is agnostic you could have ocean networks running

Privately using the ocean core code just like with the cerium or you can use a public ocean network the public ocean network itself could also be implemented with other chains and then you can use something like tokens bridges excuse me

To have value exchange with ocean tokens across the bridges into these other networks so that's something we're really excited for I think the main kind of facet here is that boxing is a team sport whether it's within the protocol

Or with the other protocols that are emerging on in the world and technology is moving so fast that it would be I'm not selfish that's the wrong word but it would be kind of blind if we didn't expect for other projects and

Technologies to be moving forward in other areas that we're not as we're not focusing on and to leverage those strengths so I think Trent can talk about a couple of them where we've been leveraging some of the strengths of

Other networks that would be great and the trend King on that note when we talk about that in a moment can you let us know a bit about the acronyms for example we hear of sass models and we hear of being pass and

Even when I was thinking of when I was reading into today whether it be a protocol as a service can you talk to us about that in the context of potentially valuable layer one blockchains sure so overall to sort of double down

On what Bruce mentioned so these these eggs that manifest I decentralized orchestration or I could be pipeline you know I talked about grabbing data from some service and I'm doing computing some service those services can be

Behind firewalls in enterprises or on people's phones they can be web to services they can be web 3 services right so I had mentioned before you know examples of web do data like Amazon s3 or web 3 data like file colon or storage

Or whatever and then also same thing for compute web to compute like Amazon ec2 web 3 compute that is general like Gollum where I exact or specific to particular things like privacy-preserving like like enigma or

AI focused like we have with singular teaming and so on so ocean is designed at it's very hard to play well with all these because it's drawing on each of those services right or will be in the design so this is you know of course one

Step at a time with the roadmap ocean already has the bones for this it has the access control but the the v2 that we're working on right now includes pulling and these services to really support these pipelines of soap 1 step 2

Step 3 right now it has support for more just pure storage services so it's fascinating because on the epidemic and what correlates also train with all of the list of partners that you have so clearly right from the outset you

Thought about those parties that can collaborate and typically work with you so there's some mutual benefits for both parties in real value for the future when three men absolutely so most of the players in web

Three are during natural and sperner's for you know these services supplying data or storage services supplying compute it also makes us well suited to who wards others doing data marketplaces because those marketplaces can increase

Their distribution by also supplying their data through ocean and then vice versa ocean can help help them in terms of data itself so they can be taking ocean data and all that through their channels as well so it's a win-win and

Benefiting with the benefits of ocean such as bringing compute of the data Ron so yeah it's natural it's across them yeah and so in that context of acronyms as we're talking about before how would you sort of describe a terminological

Explanation for the protocol of the ocean in the context of what we've known as layer 1 layer 2 for example right so overall you know all sort of blushing is in a sense like they they have 8 AP eyes that are you know solidity interfaces or

Rest interfaces that sit on top and are and defined basically more generally a protocol is simply a set of specifications about how one machine talked to another right so in that sense ocean is very much a protocol already

And with rustic API is etc on top squid Java interface JavaScript Python so you know you can frame it as if you want software as a service but that is a very web to term and of course you can do that for you know what oh she is

Exposing and you know there are people framing block chains as platform-as-a-service and all that that's fine I you know people can use whatever models they want to sort of fit into the

Context they understand we see that ocean is really this ultimately this technology to unlock data which has sort of a service-oriented way to to consume it right right and I'm glad to talk this trailer because quite sincerely what are

You shining your response now is it is slightly different to that typical so vertical the we we treat many of them in and we try to box them into those layers really because of the replete nurse and because of the sophistication

Of what I'm already into at least bit protion it is slightly different in that it is a robust architecture of its own yeah it is but we also are going way over way to reuse all the other great building blocks that have been emerging

In the web too and the web 3 Co system in Lynott right and you know in web 2 even our call in the big bitty Christian there are things like kubernetes and dr that have become very important so we happily use those tools as well

Right I should mention though if you're a developer looking to use ocean then we have very straightforward to use libraries right such as squid pie squid is that you know in just a handful of lines of code you can start getting

Using ocean immediately and we have nice onboarding for those too and how generic is the acts of those kinds of code because obviously you mentioned solidity and that requires a little bit of knowledge of all firstly that in also

Aetherium with its unique programming language so how accessible have you made this – you know developers worldwide yeah so squid giant squid pie etc you can view these as essential to the SDKs one level above write in JavaScript

Python etc so if you're using those and the off-the-shelf templates for orchestration that we provide then you don't need to interact with solidity at all right if you want you can go to one level deeper and interact much more

Detail if you if you want but at one level higher you don't have to so even if you're you know I developer only used to do web 2 and doing a lot on say the JavaScript stack with nodejs and so on then you can use ocean out of the box

But if you choose you know if you really want to get deeper and spent a lot of time in solidity et cetera that's completely ok that's good to know and Bruce want to ask you also with regard to code access

The state of the github itself I mean how how to authentically open source is the technology so far yeah so with absolutely so you know all of our repos every I I haven't pulled that up but all of our repos that we're building on are

Public and we think that the community should be inspecting this taking a look at what we are publishing yeah there are some repos that we are still in development that we have kept close just to make sure that we we

Understand the kind of the process and how to do it before we publish it right okay now with regard to we were I was referencing something before I couldn't quite remember but I've written it down in my notes train with Rika you have a

Thing called a service execution agreement is that it seemed to me it was very important to your overall design so can you just talk a bit more about the value of that agreement and what it actually does yes in fact the sec

Service execution agreement is how you describe one of these compute pipelines one of these compute dates so it's just a sort of a protocol by which you specify do this then this then this right right now what is shipping an

Ocean is really about access control especially around data sets so we have templates for these seas that are that are really easy to use from within the higher-level sdk you know squid pies cookies etc right and then as we're

Building v2 right now then we are creating new template service execution agreements seas for these compute PI plans that have you know grabbed from a data service then do some compute then do then store again etc etc etc so these

Seats are really how you specify these pipelines and that is exactly like you said at the very heart of motion right now in context gentleman if you could give us some examples of applications you know it's regard to uptake of the

Elder seas whether that be from enterprise or other sectors just so we understand that this is not just a narrative this is not just a white paper but it's something more sure I can I can start with that so we

Do have some engagements some we've announced them we haven't announced and it it mainly goes around connecting to entities that want to share data whether it's in their own kind of private sharing or looking forward to something

Future and so what people have done is they've created this kind of bilateral connection and they're using the SC's to just track provenance of data sharing so for instance right now let's say for health if somebody wants to make sure

That this data was actually transferred you can use the C's along with the the ocean network to record that this data did pass over at this time under these conditions and that's kind of like the the archetype of the use case that we're

Working on right now there's other use cases that we're working on that are closer to bringing computer data but those we kind of want to save those up for announcements later on okay I'll let you okay I'll let you get away with that

Part but I do want to understand a bit more about some of the verticals let's open up this discussion because if we can't discuss a real value of this in the real world and really it's gonna be difficult people to understand ocean

Itself so without giving names away can you talk to us more about key verticals you mentioned medicals one so that we can understand essentially how fast the the scope is for ocean in the future so we think we think there's a need for go

Ahead worse so yeah thank you so we think there's a need for a general-purpose data sharing they add AI services sharing protocol so that's the the market opportunity is in my mind quite unlimited like we have a long way

To go before this this type of opportunity is tapped out right we have been working in healthcare retail automotive as well as industrial kind of areas right now in the last since we started in mid 2017 and we've been

Gradually getting as a technology matures going into these and learning more and more so for instance what we have published is you know we're a one of the founding members of movi which is an automotive consortium within that

Automotive consortium our automakers that represent I forget what percentage of the global production but it's a significant amount and then we are we're quite active there and then in healthcare we if I have to actually say

It I think that that's where most of our inquiries come from is the healthcare sector where people I mean it's obvious people want to share research people are wanting to work with other companies to get better data and advance faster with

Products and services but given the sensitivity around privacy genetic data and health data nobody knows how to do it and so many of our use cases that people are coming up to us with relate to healthcare because if

You solve healthcare you pretty much solve a whole bunch of problems that affect most of the other sectors so if you can solve sharing data privately safely and securely that applies very cleanly to financial

Services so if I'm a hedge fund if I run a hedge fund and I want certain data and I want to know that I'm the only one accessing it you can use the same types of solutions that we have for other sectors and apply it into financial

Services so financial data is a huge one by the way and I could go on actually right if you wanted to step in you have places all right yeah sure so we actually can be much more specific than what we've been listening so far so you

Know some of the organizations that were working with and various capacities include Roche Johnson Johnston Unilever the government of Singapore connected life AI XPrize and many more they're actually listed in a website for anyone

To look and for each of the ones that I mentioned we usually have at least one or two blog posts describing exactly the engagement so and you know to be more specific on to the verticals that we spend a fair bit of time as Bri saluted

On healthcare and on mobility healthcare imagine if you can build an AI model imagine if you can build an AI model that is across a billion people right where it's you know super super accurate because right now if you're building

Model to say predict Parkinson's then you might have one hospital or maybe five and you've got you know 1,000 10,000 people and so that's gonna be a certain level of accuracy so you may be ten percent error but if you can

Actually build across way more then you your your error rate goes down to you know 1% 0.1 percent etc right and this is might be possible if you can get data across many many many hospitals of course if you were to pool that data in

The traditional way across many hospitals then it would be a privacy nightmare so I imagine though that you could do the benefit of pooling all the data a model that is essentially pooled across

These in terms of learning without that data ever leaving those silos and even the orchestration to build that model is decentralized and this is what Ocean promises and that's what something about the permissioned aspect built into the

Permissionless system as well Trent because you're catering for the needs of various privacy needy and entities when we're talking about healthcare for example and you're trying to also facilitate a more global system that is

Ocean so in the context of today how are the discussions and the relay and the I guess the deliberations going with these parties you mentioned they are on the website so that they are they can understand what you do and and how far

Ahead are you in a roadmap with them to collaborate yeah so so for each of these different ones it's at various stages and whatnot but we have ongoing engagements with with several entities and we will announce those at once we

Get further along we prefer to make our announcements you know only to announce more once we start make once we have progress of X Y Zed right left where there's a real moment finally prior to things being really properly done it

Only I would argue does damage to the whole system that is encrypt on blockchain because a lot of speculation then counting so I really respect that you're not doing it until they really happen your time now gentlemen with

Regard to essentially AI for a moment I want to talk about some statements that you've made in your literature to better understand just how valuable it is now it says here that AI advances six times more when data is available I wanted to

Try and understand what you mean by that what is it what does it mean to have data connected to AI in the context of what you're trying to do and well how do you essentially then make AI so much more valuable now respect yeah so I

Guess had summarized over this before but the the quick summary is AI needs data in order to build these models for classification regression for example you know credit card addiction if you've got a really bad credit card fraud

Detection if you've got a really bad a model then some of them coming in you wanted to applies for a credit card are they going to be able to pay their bills or not right if you've got a bad day I model then you

Won't have any real idea to assess for the decoder they're bad right and so but you want to have as accurate of model as possible to then choose whether they're worthy to have and so the more data the better and to quote a famous paper from

The mid two thousands data is unreasonably effective right and so and that's really the heart of it right so after a a models need lots of data want more and more and more data not just to X but NX there was an exploit that's not

At the heart of what ocean is about right now Bruce I want to talk to you a bit more about the blockchain in the context of some things we've been talking about in terms of reading 3d mobility rewards and incentives the

Blockchain is perfect for that scenario can you talk us through more of that because obviously as trying to explain the token supply is very very large you know as we move on in the decades to come so what's the plan to incentivize

The participants the the consumers and users of the ecosystem I'm gonna hand it over Trent he's the one who's been working on this more than I am right okay sure my pleasure yeah so overall even from the day one when we were

Working on ocean we saw that there's a lot of value to having data marketplaces for buying and selling price data but then there's a unit of the yang which is Commons data and we saw you know there's actually lots of organizations putting

Data out there in the open but it's all basically siloed there are more than 200 independent organizations out there that are saying hey here's our data set come music music right and and at the same time you know they just put it out there

With api's and sometimes it gathers dust right so what if there could be some sort of unified way to gather this all together via a unified API where that data doesn't need to get moved it's just there and people are incentivized to

Share if you spread the word and so on and this is really what we're trying to do with the ocean incentives that so the heart of the incentive system is the goal the thing we're optimizing for is maximize the supply of relevant data and

This and this has an emphasis on Commons data so the network basically pays you in Ocean tokens if you stake on data and then apply it as asked so and the more you take the more you expect on average to

Get paid that's really what it's about and this is part of our v3 which you know we're working towards building and ship right I did look at the road map and I noticed that there is a need for some more updates in both I think q3 and

Q4 I wanted to ask both of you gentlemen about some criticisms of staking actually where some have suggested that it's a means of just simply changing the circulating supply could you could you clarify a bit more about why it's so

Valuable to add Steinke and embed that into your system longitudinally given that there is so much controversy about thanking today and how essentially some arguing that it really just helps with attracting more users into the ecosystem

Because of the token value itself so I can comment so how we approach the design of ocean overall is very much the way that an electrical engineer would design the approaches of an electrical circuit which is a very thorough

Methodology at the heart of what we're trying to do we're designing these dynamical systems and there's you know link flow of tokens of the flow and so on and you want to have sinks like things like batteries and so any in

Electrical terms so as we were designing the ocean token we wanted to make sure that it had these dynamics that had people supplying data and so what fell out of that is supplying data subject to several constraints that we laid out

There's about a dozen that we've documented things like you know prevent spam and people who really believe like a signal for curation if people really believe in the value of a data set they need to signal in some authentic way and

So for that staking is a key part there so overall we had approached this designing the token from pure engineering perspective we actually called a token engineering and you know in a fun way that really took off so we

But you know with her background as engineers this is how we approach the design rather than saying okay it needs to you know it's something directly related to some hype in the cripton worker that's not how we approach things

We really approach it from a pure engineering perspective right and that's exactly one of them to know train because obviously there are those who come from an economics standpoint when they

Try and do token economic modeling and you're saying it's coming from a very engineering sort of centric position so I appreciate that and hopefully we'll talk a bit more about the token model later but with regard to the marketplace

Itself Bruce want to talk to you about that just give us a bit of a rundown on the marketplace scenario now because obviously the participation the the natural flow of the marketplace is the fundamental asset of the protocol itself

How is that going how is the marketplace building suppose now in the future will you release a reference marketplace which is for Commons data so free data and what we've now had and I think it's public in our github is kind of a

Setting where people can start publishing and pricing data so with this type of toolkit anybody can come in take the ocean reference marketplace and start then using the components underneath and then selling data if they

Want you know that that's a wheel that a big wheel we have to start get going but that's kind of the capability now once once we've kind of refined the pricing size there's also a need for kind of data management so once people are

Publishing data they want to actually see how that data is being consumed who's consuming us or something that's more of a data management platform so that's something that we think is the next logical step to build into the

Marketplace so those are kind of a building blocks and then with those building blocks now for us we're ramping up business development activities to go to prospective startups small medium sized as well as

Large enterprises to see where they have the need for releasing and unlocking their data and whether or not the marketplace toolkit is suitable for that to use our notion so there's there's already a need for people have

Provenance of where data is going and how it's clean share people are wanting to have a price signal on their data but they don't know how to share to get that initial liquidity going so these are all the 0 to 1 challenges that we're working

On right now and I think there's a whole bunch of other teams in the space trying to get this that wheel turning and this is one of the big challenges if we get this going if we start getting market places moving

Using the Ocean protocol then for me that is a huge indicator that this this idea can fly absolutely I think this is the most important part of the conversation so with regard to the conversations you're having without a

Power the parties SMEs for example or anyone that could benefit from the protocol how is that actually going in real time how do you get through your marketing strategy or through your PR or through any other means and you get

Current interest how do you garner that that interest in the mainstream sort of environment so that they can transition utilizing the protocol I think one of the strategies that we used at big change EB when we're we're working on

The big Chain DB the database is the same strategy we're doing here we are speaking and presenting in places where we know that there's going to be a lot of CIOs decision-makers who are struggling with how do they manage this

Data is this the data that they want to keep in-house and if they want to keep in-house is it something that you want to or is able to monetize and so those are the types of discussions we're trying to have we've been having a lot

More of them so people are coming to us we get quite a few kind of enquiries every week of saying hey I have the set of data I'd like to monetize it let's have a discussion and I can explain to you my

Problem and then we come from our side say okay does the marketplace toolkit as well as the ocean components is there is there an angle that we can explain to them and educate them so that's the ocean

Network as well as capabilities become attractive for them right and clearly there is an event there is the demand there Bruce that you're mentioning and that's what I want to check now in doing that obviously you have to have a

Presentation and a pitch with price systems and listings as well can you talk us through how organized you – you guys are with regard to the presentation of how you essentially charge for the services that you offer so there's

There's kind of two ways that you can look at business models if we're going down this route number one is given the the vulgarities the the broad kind of problem sets that we could be tackling with every single

Client probably at the States best thing is to just offer them workshops to understand their need to provide education and then to start prototyping for them and a lot of stuff you could do on a consulting model or you can do on a

Subscription model we found that consulting is something that a lot of people are open to and they want to they're able to engage a lot faster because it's just it's it's just like okay we have some toolkit you have a

Problem let's see if we can't find a solution within three months so it works and then based on these engagements the idea is that we can start building products on top of ocean that could be software as a service subscription base

Where then those are more scalable and that's kind of the one to approach that we're looking at and right now the main focus is just getting out there under understanding the problem and then making sure that's the ocean toolkit and

Network can be constructed in a way to solve those problems paging consulting and then based on that we can build some additional tools on top that are value add right got it so essentially so you can become that

One-stop-shop first it's interesting you say that because some of the more prominent and ambitious protocols also trying to make sure they had that integration service and that consultation as a starting point you've

Built that in train I wanted to talk to you about some of the concerns because one thing that was impressive in your information provided is that you addressed some of the concerns you don't have answers for yet and something that

Your team would be still openly discussing some of them were things like usability even questions about whether or not incentives will fail in the future questions about security it's impressive that you are questioning

These issues can you talk us to us a bit more about the concerns the team has currently as you build this sure so overall you know there's the the network backend where we have rolled out the v1 so far which is the the skeleton of the

Orchestration as well as the decentralized access control and of course a network back-end you still need to have front ends for that target the end users whether it's people with data people consuming

Right so we have a couple demonstrators in the front end already which allowed people to on board and try out theirs Commons Ocean Commons which is at Commons at Ocean protocol comm where people can use this and in fact we've

Gone way to our way for reusability there and now even has burner wallet functionality which is something pretty recent going to get here interface so you don't even need to hook it up to madam asked for anything you can use

That if you want but it's just really easy another demonstrator that we have is something called manta ray where it's a data science to ocean protocol comm and people go there and they can spin up a

Jupiter notebook and play with ocean air and the jupiter notebook itself is treated like a data asset in ocean so these are things that we have right now for people to help one board to understand how ocean might be used as

Well as just help them start imagining things that they might build and so that's of course she's a really dis concerned broadly in the blockchain space but you know we have some demonstrators to show that it can be

Quite usable and as we build more of the backend v2 v3 etc and front-end related functionality then that should be helping more and more right in terms of the incentive design itself just address that quickly I mean we will see as we

Roll it out but if you're do if you approach engineering you know and I used to build CAD software to verify computer chip designs right and so two years ago I wrote about this a lot and a year and a half ago about verifying and designing

Your token engineering and where there was a real lack of tools for verifying tokenize designs you know a smart contract audit and a formal verification that handled some of it does not handle the dynamics so there's a lot of work

That needs to be done to to verify the dynamics some tools are starting to emerge I've just can't cater to block science but there will be other tools and tactics that you can apply to so one thing that we are doing to help minimize

The risk as people with the tool is rather than having 100% of the block reward curve rollout on day one when we like the v3 which has the incentives it's actually multiplied by simply 10% and that way it puts less of the tokens

At risk at first if people are gaming the system and then as the system stabilizes then that multiplier will go from 10 percent to 25 to 15 100% of the actual reward curve in doing this way basically you know the best way

To verify is a live system right where the dynamics are in play there's just less at risk so this is one of the key aspects we're going to be one of the key tools were using to verify the system live and hardening and Tran that it also

Explains you know that point you're making about we're yet to see whether or not this is going to be successful but certainly you know there is this very very detailed plan that you've put out as you start to release this

Incrementally now Bruce I want to talk to you about something a little bit more challenging perhaps that's with regard to the more macro assessment of crypto we see regulation rife arguably we see questionable conduct is it or does it

Concern you at all that you you are part of a system that's yet to really clarify you know it's through regulation and compliant means exactly what the stance is of even terminologically and it's a lot involved in this question I know but

Does it concern you about some of the sort of malevolence the actions that seem to be playing out at the moment great question actually I think that for oceans perspective you've always taken the road of playing cleaning being fair

Being transparent and we are you know card-carrying members of Missouri registry for transparency we have reported as much as we could to many other entities that have asked us and we've issued some of the kind of more

Dodgy practices to minimus manipulate price and I'm this is something that I stand by and I think the community also stands by and I think that it's also human nature when there is in a sense a new opportunity a new technology a lot

Of activity going on there's money at stake that of course there will be textures there'll be people who are defrauding others and that is of course is not pleasant to watch and we just tried to stay as much as possible you

Know being a transparent to the community and doing the right thing that's that's the question I generally ask myself is is the right answer is this the right way to do it that if if we have to tell the community later

On is that something they would understand I appreciate that because quite sincerely I would argue also that the team's stance needs to reflect the beauty of the blockchain which is transparency

First and foremost we just simply need more teams like yourselves to do that and with regard to the team itself either if you could comment and hopefully you both do on the team on the strengths of your team on the skillsets

Of your team specifically I have a look there's quite a few 20-plus perhaps there's more now but many of them come with their own absolute skill set and a unique experience do you have the right team are you building your team and how

Is it going so far I think our team has got dozens of years decades of experience in AI we're one of the very first team in the world working on blockchain we have some experts on data I think that the the team is the

Right team it's a rare opportunity to bring together talents like this together to solve this type of problem and we're not alone also because there's other teams in the world that we collaborate with because I mean no

Single team can have all the talents in the world but I'm I'm very proud of the team and what we've accomplished in in essentially one and a little bit like you know one and a half years of developing we had an independent

Security audit on our code and the main quarter there was you know in the time that they've been given it's almost unbelievable what they've delivered and then the you know the the attention to detail and documentation and meeting the

Community needs it's fantastic that was kind of like the outcome of the audit report right and what about you train what would you like to add just quickly with regard to the team well yeah I certainly echoes Bruce statements and

Whatnot and overall you know we're building something that is at the intersection of AI and blockchain so we're very fortunate to have a lot of expertise in the team on both facets including people who have a lot of

Experience in both of these things right hmm which is actually quite rare you know we've been in in the blockchain space quite for four five six years already like Bruce mentioned we were one of the very first ones doing anything in

The space with IP on the blockchain and then working on the big big beach in DB which was data oriented towards blockchain and so just and now though we're able to loop back and draw on the tons of experience we have in the

World of AI and pull that to basically solve these like how I see it it's solving problems that AI people have you know a people just are crying free data they really need data and there hasn't been great solutions presented in the AI

Space but we saw that watching can address that so while having the team to help deliver on this I'm very very proud of the team that we're that we have sure and it's guys it's not easy to keep your team you've mentioned Trent that you're

A longitudinal project that started a few years ago so to have your team go with you throughout the the tribulations the challenges the trials that you've already gone through our how to look at some of the things you've done and we'll

Talk about that in the process but kudos to you for keeping much of your team together now with regard to your advisers I want to talk about that because you have a lot of them and you don't typically see this kind of number

One in particular one to mention that's meltem de mirrors because obviously many know of her position in Congress she's a you know international speaker for and proponent for blockchain more generally and cryptography what's it mean to you

To have the depth of these advisers and particularly in the light of Milton as well how important is it has someone like her as part of your team we I mean we're ecstatic over the the advisers that we have in the quality not only

Melton but a whole bunch of others what we saw when we were assembling an advisory team but that we needed more experts and AI watching data and industry from go-to-market and such like that and so we went out looking for

These types of advisers and because we've been in space for a long time the it was a relatively easy kind of conversation with them and then I mean all the way for the last couple of years meltem as well as quite a few other ones

People like Ryan Celsius and a whole bunch of others have been helping us along with the technology in terms of the token design in terms of kind of everything about the projects they've been giving us input along the way and

That type of insight because they access some of the smartest people in the space that type of insight allows us to to see what's happening and to allow us to stay focused on what we're building but then get the insights that other people are

Seeing elsewhere Ryan I think you raise a very important point that is access to the broader network that is you know the crypto sphere there's a lot of assets that are people in that industry beyond the tech development of you know that

What tends to become a very sell a very focused group that is the ocean protocol Devers and engineers so have you found value in the network that these advices have brought and if you have what's some examples of the value they've brought I

Think so many of the advisers are industry ones and they've been funneling leads to us and a certain building up technology we're getting to a stage where many of these leads can now be addressed again with their use skins

Because we have kind of the toolkits and the software development kits I think what really sticks out to me from the advisers is we brought on advisors that would tell us the truth and and the honest truth and so they've been very

Good about that and I appreciate that I want people to tell us if we're messing up if we're doing something strategically wrong and all this or stuff and that's kind of the main area where I've been getting value is that

You know people like Ryan selcas are meltem they call out coin very yeah they do it's to Ryan's roots rice and you know they're very very bold and very direct and so I'm and just certainly

Have a very good book wait they have a very good meter and so for us to have them on as advisors to us means a lot because they're the first people we have to convince and they'll call our if we have any and then it goes

Out to the community we publish it and such like that so these are the types of people that you want to tell you the unvarnished truth they also have an educated view as well they understand the ecosystem they are also respected

Speakers you know and highly regarded people in this environment as well so you know congratulations to be able to have them on board they do you know represent a lot of the voice for us as people in the space the trend did you

Want to add anything to that as well yeah couple other things so there is sort of you know we do have a phenomenal set of advisors and as Richard pointed out from different sort of verticals and

Industries and so on and even within blocking space we also have people who are leading thinkers to help us think about governance going forward about technology strategy and so on and they sort of have these visions of the future

That are very rare so a great example is it was penned a you know of Eragon and one of the most transparent product projects in the space so know that so Louis and has been very helpful and showing how we can be more transparent

How we construct ourselves way forward all of this or Simon too with just how to think about incentives and and the token engineering and so on one other thing is I'm you Luray yeah Simon de lluvia thank you and and you know in the

AI space too we have people who have been extremely helpful you know we have Peter Wang whose founder of anaconda which has more than 10 million users it's it's sort of like the NPM for data and Python and so he's an extremely

Helpful in helping us guide our strategy towards you know serving these data scientists very well or Andy Muller also with secular and another very prominent AI project aboard that's just a simple yeah really about the whole migration

Towards you know application and real utility and each of them have their key value prop for you know bringing forward you know a more successful outcome for you with regard to with regard to some of those key points we talked about a

Use cases more generally of regulated data global data Commons as you mentioned made some allusions of key foci as well such as the with Moby in the self-driving car lots to be had lots more to be seen as more announcements

Come in the future but just moving back to pricing for a second gentlemen firstly want to ask you if I wanted to find out more is there any documentation I can read because I couldn't find it easily with regard to understanding how

You price your value and also there's mentioned old fungible and non-functional data in that context can you talk to me about that a little bit so I understand yeah so on Oscar with the second first because it's a shorter

Answer so fungible which is none fungible data I mean at the heart of it data is a set of bits which of course we can be copy copy copy but the thing that you can actually make it fungible in unfindable because

At the end of the day you have an IP license to use that data or not which is simply a business contract thun thun towards the right and the heart of a support for that is simply IP law and copyright law specifically so then you

Could say if you want i'm going to create ten limited editions of this data set and each limited edition I can sell so that's sort of like a fungible version right just like you could have any or c20 coin around just

That data set if you wanted but you don't need a year C 20 of course and that's an example of making the data set punchable or at the hearth of the copyright itself you know that goes with the owner but you can have a single

License which then is non-functional but there's a lot of other varieties or things you can do too in terms of pricing and this goes to your first question on pricing of data there's a huge variety of ways to price data

Probably the most straightforward is simply a fixed price right for a given license to a data set but that's actually often hard because you know how do you connect that with the actual value that the data set is delivering

Right so the ideal way to price is where you actually can understand the value that it's being created and then it links back to the data set so let's say you have this this compute PI plan of you know grab some data clean it build a

Model use the model to predict something and then make sales on that and then imagine you you're getting royalties on those sales so overall you know the creator of the AAA model gets a 20 percent royalty and of that they're

Giving say half of the proceeds to to the people with the datasets right right so with ocean then you have this pipeline that's in a small contract that then links back to the data providers and this is what why we're really

Excited about open from this perspective of these compute pipelines these eggs because the providers of the data I can get paid in sort of a royalty fashion for solving these problems that's not there and in the v1 but it's coming in

In the v2 etc in more detail I say that's a royalty shy pricing is incredibly powerful so in that context gentlemen are we can we expect more transparency more I guess explication of the process of the pricing models as you

Start to make them clear so actually we have a series of blog posts that have been coming out from one of our people early so he published two blog posts I'm not sure the third is oh yeah and all of the sort

Of different possible pricing models with ocean and so you know people who want to run marketplaces they can choose whatever pricing model they want and influent it etc and so then it's not about you know ocean protocol foundation

Etc being transparent it's really just about the what does the data pricing look like right and there's a lot of other options to variance of auctions and so on to so a huge variety of possibilities and some of them were

Actually only possible if you have a crypto setup like ocean so things that were more possible and and web 2.0 dat marketplace become possible and you know in a context like ocean such as this royalties set up I just mention got it

Now gentlemen given that you are fundamentally protocol but you want to be sent to sustain your position I would imagine well into the future have you also made sure in this context of other parties also being able to

Engage in the marketplace that you can to so that you can for example develop an application or doing something so that you can sustain revenue and create revenue for you know your own photos other team to continue well into the

Future yeah so it's probably a the right time to talk about ocean protocol foundation ocean protocol foundation had had taken the community funds and and dispersed to two of the founding partners big chain

TV index the foundation cares for the community the brand and token distributions etc the companies became GB and Dex have each been given kind of service contracts to build out different components of the network as well as do

Business development and both big changes the index are responsible for setting up their own profit making kind of sustainable businesses on top of ocean if they can and so that that's essentially what we're what we're doing

So ocean protocol is not not for profit it's meant to go as broad as possible to the community to get diversity to get competitive competition and within that competition big chain TV index will both be playing in the field okay

Well that's pretty transparent so you you're a bit of ice you want to be a you know agnostic open source protocol but you also want to make sure that there's built into your architecture and your roadmap

And hence the foundation now with regard to the tokenized service layer that's what you call it in your information there are certain parts that are relevant things like data storage compute algorithms and then the staking

And the licensing as well is there anything you wanted to add to that when we talk solely about this tokenized layer well I guess maybe everything dad is that the ocean token itself simply has many roles right so it has the role

Of being used as the unit of exchange for people to be buying and selling data it has the role of staking if you want to earn revenue on a data set from Network rewards when network rewards are dispensed those rewards are dispensed in

Ocean tokens and there's and in the staking side too basically they're staking for sort of back and forth challenge/response dynamics like let's say is sort of a data set that then are I claimed to have served a data set that

I actually didn't serve then there's ways for people to challenge me and if I really didn't serve it then my stake would get slashed so you know there's more complex dynamics there related to the to the token design is 12mm so

Basically there's a few different uses right I don't really want to talk long sorry bracele I wanted to ask you this is probably the most important question in the context of the token gentlemen one of the things that we just don't see

Enough in fact I would argue that we almost never see it and there's a really clear correlation between the value of the token and the ecosystem growth whether we call that token velocity or token economic velocity or at some other

Term there's a real dearth of this empirically so have you really considered this deeply so that you can have this proof of value as an author as a genuine utility token we've looked at multiple kind of models on how the

Utility token could potentially be valued now given the sensitivity in certain jurisdictions with securities laws we were asked not to publish those and unfortunately because we did want to share that with the community so they

Could kind of see and that what we had been doing right and I appreciate just a dad that me I really I really appreciate you saying this because one of the issues that comes across a lot is how do explain in the app from the outset when

You crowdfunding for example what the terminological you know meaning of the token is so I use the term pre utility because that's essentially what it's designed to do so thank you for also acknowledging the question mark of

Security but please continue because this is a really important topic yeah so you know even even though our lawyers in three jurisdictions said that ocean token was not a security was utility token and we had done analysis on the

Token velocity Holdings the emissions schedule everything we use kind of some of the frameworks like Christmas brisket had a machine setup we were you know he even kind of vetted a lot of what we thought was you know what's possible and

All sir stuff and it came down to securities lawyers essentially saying do not you shouldn't release this because then as this should be done by an independent researcher like Moody's or SP and all this sort of stuff and this

Is not should not come from the team because then it what it does is it could set expectations in improperly and so that's why we're so happy to have independent kind of researchers like Mazari and recently block fire coming

Out talking about kind of the strengths and weaknesses of the project in in a independent manner right and try and please add to this because we mentioned block fire I'm sorry they are in that cryptos fear though and I would love to

See more analysis from outside even crypto when they explore the value of the token itself in the context of token velocity you want to add more to really give us confidence that there's been a lot of

Research put into this to make sure there is this strong correlation of value yes overall and I describe some of the ways that ocean tokens use before and then people can put this into whatever

Frameworks they like right one framework for example is one that many people worked with Kyle salmony from multi coin capital had a very nice piece describing sort of four different ways that you can model a token from the lowest level

Which is unit of exchange then up to the burnin burnin mint equilibrium which is a bit more value like vacuum has up to a discount tokens such as finance has up to work token which is for example as as file

Clean house and so you know the lowest level is really sort of what Chris principes analysis is and it's really on you know to exchange tokens but the highest level the way that you value that is more around net present value

For cash flow or GDP of the economy for the current year plus the future year plus the future year at discount rates according to the various things so at the heart of it actually ocean does have a workbook and dynamics putting it at

The very top because you have to in a work token basically you need to stake or pay in order to earn income in the system and ocean actually has that as part of its dynamics Brian so gentlemen can I can I ask this is a very tough

Question do you have confidence that you have done this successfully so that in the future we are going to see more evidence empirically of this connection of this interconnection between the token end what you're building out and

The reason why I just should perhaps add a little you know additional comment here is because to date if we just looked at the performance of your token we just you know we couldn't see that reasonably yet it's a fair point I think

It's all starting right now um many of the stuff that started with Chris pernitskiy all the way to California and to a whole bunch of other people we're trying to put models on here it's um it's all hypothesis there's

Nothing that set in stone um I think the main focus that we have what we've seen is there are people who said okay what have been the kind of the fees on the network using Bitcoin and the serum is kind of proxies the more thieves you

Have the that is a good sign of how much economic value is being traded you can also say how much are people investing into the mining gear and up until now I don't know how many billion has been invested into mining to secure the

Network as well as energy those are other things we don't know for utility and work tokens what's the economic models but we have a good idea that a couple things are it's clear that economic value traded over the network

Is going to be a huge indicator if we can somehow get indicators on how much value is being transacted over the ocean network as it grows that's probably a good proxy second thing is diversity of the services being offered

So if you get what they the difference between 10 services and a thousand services you could say is maybe a hundred extra so these are the types of things that we're going for so if we can get people working on the protocol and

Trading value then those are essentially the two key levers and then underneath that you have number of transactions on the network all that sort of stuff but the main thing is are people coming to the network

Like for instance Shopify has gone from 1 billion when it went public to 40 billion because they constantly have more people coming in building marketplaces and what's the value that's being transacted over it so let's say in

Amazon they transact excellent X billion 100 billion per year that's probably a good proxy we're still in the early stages as technology improves and as we get kind of live production use cases and as we grow the community I think I

Think the signal has to start coming out but I think we're still really gate I think beautifully said for is because the signaling for many of the startups is just not there yet I mean you've been building this project for some time of

This data now with regard to looking at the past obviously that's all we have you know to really use that information to you know pose these questions to the teams you did the i/o you've done prior to that you did the IC o—- a lot of

Interesting you know price movement happens throughout that process as well I wanted to talk to you about the risks of we are VC dumping the risks of conduct we often see that's questionable whether that be from selling tokens you

Know in the backend all kinds of things happen but the reality is up to now there has been a very you know a very you know I look there's been a real really questionable problem with regard to what it will spike in the price and

It's really dropped down to be fair so since they're very essentially afraid to decline now if you're starting to you know do good real business now how can you sort of reflect on the past and explain all of that's happened since the

IC o—- or since you tried to I think I think since the ILO what the team has done is two things number one is we don't influence the market the market does what it does we produce the information that as it comes out as it's

Ready and we let the market decide that's the first thing so just being transparent not putting a hand on the level love or whether it's accelerate or decelerate in any way the second thing which is more

Important thing is we just put our heads down we put our heads down to build to second and refine the roadmap and make sure that we can keep our promises for v2 and v3 and then have died over v4 v5 we put our heads down in terms of

Building community and rejuvenating and getting it you know more active and then third we do business development so we're looking for the active customers I think that is what the team expects I think in the initial stages when the we

Had a negative price movement after the ILO and we got listed there were a lot of calls for the team to put a hand on the wheel and to influence the price and I am in hindsight I am comfortable and confident that we did the right thing

And not doing anything about the price and not doing anything hanky panky well sounds but rather spending on the things that would give long-term value right so that's the thing think point I want you really get at is that you didn't you

Know participate in that kind of as we imagined mention before that very negative conduct that we do see rife in the industry despite the public pressure now just to recap a few things the i/o initially didn't work out so well

There was a know about double the price of the i/o then the IAE I came out you did that now the prices declined significantly and recently with regard to exchanges you've started to emerge there but very very recently there's

Been some anomalous action on exchanges themselves you're not obviously part of that you've mentioned that made that clear but why is it happening why are we seeing these unusual you know movements in the marketplace because of listings

On new exchanges I think many new exchanges are in a competition with themselves and to get attention and eyeballs a a lot of these exchanges put in place certain watch trading I'll just call it out to jack up volumes get

Attention for there exchange and they just think it's okay i I don't know if there's a reason why they picked something the ocean or any other token I think last week or earlier this week there was one exchange that

Had unbelievable volumes and of trading I it's coordinated by people that we have no contact with and we don't know who they are and we don't know why they do it but I think that the community in our channels from what we're seeing they

Understand that they either and they focus on the signal I say does it worry you gentlemen that it does happen though and beyond your control when indeed many of the people participating in the ecosystem that is

Crypto do look at price and obviously here for not just technology but also speculation quite sincerely so when these kind of anomalies happen that are external do you worry about it at all or are you still focused on what you're

Doing and just you know move on I think I think the best thing is for us to focus on the long-term and to focus on what we need to be doing and just like with anything like a publicly traded stock there's there's always going to be

Adversarial environments where different people are trying to put different levers on the table right some people want the token prices to go down because they shorted it or they want to buy at a lower price other people wants to token

Price to go up which is what you're ready by the way because it they get a gain on it right we I mean we're at we're happy to be part of the second system actually because then we get to see all this dynamic but as long as we

Focus on what's important to the project and long term I'm comfortable with what happens sure now with regard to runway I want to just do a bit of a race recap because obviously in from the outset you had

Done the raise do you have enough capital to continue going can you just give us a bit of a rundown on what you raised and where you're up to now so in the IC o—- ie we were raised just under 8 million US dollars most of

That's been distributed all right to the to the teams to deliver we are definitely going to be able to roll out the phases that we want to so from V 2 3 4 & 5 that's what we're committing to do with the runway that we have and then in

Parallel we're ramping up business development so that we can be sustainable in the long term I say and I want to ask you another tough question it's only because it happens a lot obviously key VCS or key parties

Invested in your startup initially did you have very secure and transparent lock ups for those parties or have they since according to lock up potentially or being able to you know move on from your project and sell your tokens so I

We had heard as we were fundraising of other projects experiencing kind of a departure of these seeds after they had yes very common token it licit so the way that we the way that we had handled that was a couple things number one is

We took in a lot of money in the pre seed from evidence who are VCS and what we did was he took their pledge and then we generally from most of them we got them by 75% what they had pledged and what they actually got in this way what

We did is we had a broad set of VCS that had holdings in ocean I think we had somewhere norine to 30 different species each getting a piece of ocean now that we've listed I'm guessing a few of them maybe between 10 and 25% may

Have departed but I think that the majority of the VCS who I've spoken to do they've said that they they're holding on to ocean they believe it's a long-term hold and as long as the team is delivering at the pace that we're

Delivering they're very comfortable keep holding so from what we've seen where the trading is happened is mostly people who bought in an IC o—- and IU that's where a lot of the volume is coming from there's definitely some people coming

From seed some people from the pre-launch etc but the vast majority of trading has been happening from just the people who came in at the at the latest stage and so from those dynamics I think that we we did as best as we could and

I'm comfortable with the fact that we brought in people early on who were very we're behind profit and technology and yes there was probably a speculative aspect of it but they're sticking around to watch to see how the game plays out

And I'm very happy and Bruce I really appreciate this mate because having been in the game a while as well observing these patents play out what tends to happen clearly is that there's a bit of a

Decline in value just by default because of the circumstances of this experiment or pre utility phase but what's exciting about what you're saying is that we're looking now through the lens of utility and you know very strong potential for

There in the future for Ocean protocol and hence you know my push in the questions about token economic modeling so that's going to be important as we start to evolve in the next few years to see that correlation and also to see you

Know to see a different narrative with regard to technology and the potential of this being paramount to the speculative value of the digital asset itself are you confident that that transition is going to happen with all

The things you're building I think so I think that the entire blocking space is maturing we're seeing in the last few months of course the crypto markets itself being relatively flat but I see that as a positive because now we're

Consolidating we're letting the technology get catch up or run ahead of the hype once that happens and then we get more people coming into the space then you can have that kind of moving together so you know we had technology

Moving way forward and then the hype came drawback then the technology moves forward then the hype you know this is the way technology is going to go but more and more we're gonna get people on boarded into this web 3 world and I'm

Convinced that decentralized technologies is the next Internet fully and combined with an intersection with AI which itself is another kind of life-changing technology I think ocean is well-positioned

Absolutely no gentleman with regard to desynchronized sort of listings feature more credit credible exchanges I mean obviously there are some exchanges that you're not you know there's no dialogue you're having with them some of them are

Just listing before their own ends as we've seen but let's regard to for example coinbase and the like some that have got you know strong strong reputations and also considering the regulation and compliance is still a

Conversation that's very serious right now are you confident that in the future you're gonna see a marrying of ocean Protocol we or rather an alignment with credit good exchanges and you know top-down moves to make sure

That you're supported through compliance and regulation yeah I think I think there's two ways to kind of answer that number one is our community is growing its vibrant the channels are extremely positive so thanks to all the committee

Members who add those good vibes I think that it's the community who's going to convince the reputable Exchange digital it's us so the more the community can do to talk about ocean to encourage the exchanges lists reputable serious

Projects the better it is and I think that secondly the power is in the people yeah yeah totally I mean we will focus on the tech you guys focus on on making sure we're on reputable exchanges I think that top-down we we have done

Everything we could to stay within each jurisdictions kind of laws on securities and to respect them and I'm comfortably done as best we could right and you've also mentioned that there is a plethora of fight volumes out there and that's

There even more the reason why we want to push for that regulation and for more of this transparent approach to to make sure that a good project went out are you concerned right now there's just a lot of points and I really do mean

That term in a different way to the maximum let's use it because there is crypto crap there's no question of it but there's also other things other than BTC out there trying to do things so once we move away that crap from the

Crypto environment are you confident that we'll have a you know more quality over quantity i I think I think that the the financial tools perón seized the community movement everybody's getting smarter about crypto we're starting to

See signals being separated from noise if I just can name a couple of excellent projects like New Marais I and make but these are excellent projects with very low market caps right now but potentially by doing the the level of

Their technology maturity and such like that so I think that and then there's other projects which I don't I won't name any of them that that are way kind of out of proportion to where their technology is right this is normal I

Think that some teams are better at marketing than others other ones are better at technology hopefully we've struck the right balance go to and then on that point to the and just as example you know there's

Technicans that kept their heads down and just built really great technology and then and the market might have noticed them at some point you know probably my favourites example examples are chain Lincoln cosmos you know those

Teams just built built built built built and at some point the market noticed them and so you know we see that if we just keep delivering value and building really great technology that people can use solving real problems that's our

Focus and at some point the market will follow absolutely so in for a first year it's all about building it's all about making sure that platform that ecosystem that protocol and that infrastructure is

There with your very very robust architecture that's going to take more time in the future hopefully gentlemen we can have more interviews and have more discussions right now just to finish off firstly I'd like to thank

Both of you both Bruce and Trent for your time as cofounders of Ocean protocol it's been a really long interview but the reason is obvious is so that people can have a very strong understanding of what you're trying to

Do is there anything either of you would like to say you know as a final statement before we finish off I mean from my site I just like to thank you for taking the time I'd like to thank the community

Also for talking about ocean and and and playing fair being kind with others everybody who comes into the community gets a welcome a warm welcome from some of the community members and I we just appreciate everything you guys are doing

For us thanks very much for that III hopefully echoed Bruce's comments yeah it's at the end of the day you know let's all be excellent to each other could instead of my bed a bit of myself gentlemen thank you once again and to

All the community of ocean regardless of which you're in or globally and once again the power is in with the people as much it is with the team so if you'd like to know more make sure you do engage with with the team themselves

They're available through the different social media channels I'll make sure the descriptions are in the information below but just finally for a bit of fun to finish off as well gentlemen bullion blockchain

Yes or no absolutely bullish on BTC first we gotta fix you okay sorry BCC BTC unboxing yeah I mean we did it yeah absolutely I mean we bet the last students of our life on decentralized speck which

Instance blocked Bitcoin etherium and many of the other players in space it's an all-in bet got a you actually stole the last question for both you and that is pollution on web 3.0 obviously it's an exciting time so the questions

Yes I'm the answers yes I'm sure great thank you no worries well guys think they so much for your time I really appreciate it and again don't stop keep going it's all about the tech it's all about driving forward to

Make sure that we can see real teams translate everything that we we've seen in theory to make it pragmatic to make it practical and to make it real so the business does if the blockchain and we start to see the advantages of it keep

Going Oshin protocol is here for long-term if you want to know more you just check the descriptions below but thanks Trent and Bruce for you time

Related Videos

Hello the Republicans and welcome to another video of my cryptocurrency news series where I'm looking at the news that happened last week now today's 28...
What's up crypto gang welcome back to another episode if you guys are doing here we do a giveaway at the beginning of every single episode and today's w...
What's going on guys crypto jeremy here back with xrp video hope you guys have a fantastic day thank you guys so much for tuning in to another video and the...
What's up guys kevin cage here just wanted to do a quick market update on this monday so as we can see ada ada is down 11 today we noticed that it is coming...
Hello the Koopalings and welcome to another video in my cryptocurrency event overview series the aim of the series is to find any upcoming cryptocurrency events...
Ladies and gentlemen people of the internet welcome back to yet another episode of crypto over coffee hope you're doing well today and if you're new her...
Hey guys welcome back so first of all I want to start as usual by thanking everybody who's been liking subscribing and sharing my content you're helping...
Hi i'm brad garland house the ceo here at ripple it's an honor and really a privilege for us to be one of the founding members of the international asso...
Hello the cubicles and welcome to another video maker of the currency event over the series the aim of the series is to find any upcoming the currency events an...
I have to apologize to everybody because I've been promoting a company who only has their best interests at heart top salesmen best interests at heart and n...
It is Monday and you know what that means another episode of Krypto segments what's going out everybody it's your boy Krypto Bobby I hope you were havin...
What's going on everybody Alex back was another cryptocurrency video but today we're going to be talking about how to control yourself how to emotionall...
Hey guys welcome back first off I want to thank everyone who's been liking subscribing and sharing my content you guys rule and I appreciate all the constan...
Live from the USA hoping you get paid every day this stuff boasts a Bitcoin the crease though of creeped up is avoid BK and if you don't like me you must no...
Okay come down here boom that would be picture-perfect beautiful guys look at this we actually have this candle come down right on this line right here right ab...
Wow you guys are going to want to check this out guys as you may know Bitcoin has decreased a few hundred dollars as of about midnight last night we have some i...
What's going on guys crypto jeremy here back with xrp video hope you guys had a fantastic day thank you guys so much for tuning in to another video today&#3...
Hello tokens and welcome to another video nice update now today's third of June and I'm looking at news that happened from 28th of May until today I alw...
hello it's Brad Lori or blockchain Brad and today we're speaking exclusively with icon many of you know it you've known it for years and they'r...
People what's going on this an update on Tron all right so the market right now market cap is 431 billion we've got a Bitcoin dominance roughly 34 perce...