Meat Eater Decides to Challenge Vegan Activist

by birtanpublished on August 24, 2020

We were advanced animals they have taken over the planet and flown to the space I have not seen a flying cow and it really isn't going to make a difference it really won't make a difference if we kill a trillion animals or just one animal at the end of the day my name's

Ed nice to meet you badness and I appreciate you wait and it seem down not the greatest whether to stand around in his SRO it's been interesting good good are you ready to go thank you so much you sitting down I'm at the University

Of Sussex I have a tablecloth that says can you justify not being vegan and you very kindly sat down next to me and so I'm interested to know what you have to say about that that proposition I don't think it's economically viable for the

Next 50 years few factors there's a lot of jobs in the meeting and general sort of food industry especially with animals and whatnot a lot of people realize that's why I was interesting to see you've said vegan not vegetarian because

Vegetarian I could get behind with veganism a lot of animal products used not only in medical you know you've got pig heart valves for example help save lives but you've also got various types of animal fats have used in different

Types of materials and all sorts of things which just translates such a big industry worldwide that if you were to just cut it off globally you would have your massive meltdowns just in various different types of industries so I think

Something like this needs to be thought about in more of a gradual process I think undeniably the process Devine ISM will be gradual and we the first point you made how many um did you know how many people like or what percentage

Of people in the UK working and in the agricultural work workforce less than five percent yes I think it's free percent in total and I think about one and a half percent of the total workforce of the UK is is an animal you

Think we should look at globally the UK has less than one percent of the global population and we're a developed nation that's why we only have three percent of verse in agriculture you go to a country like Kenya and you've got a much higher

Agricultural base and they're doing all various types of farming you know it would not and then not just in Africa but when you go to Uppercross those South America and other you know really big areas where they've got lots of

Farmland they're impoverished people that rely on that economics like them exactly so yes and this is the thing you have global socio-economic thing and so what we have to do which is why I'm partly

Doing it here is looking at countries where that possibility exists now in Kenya I don't think I'm gonna make the case to go there and say you can you know use the goat for the family in the community right I'm not going to say

That but here in this country there is the argument that can be made here and even in South America where yes people rely on agriculture for jobs but there's solutions and alternatives gradual but then gradual gradual fixes undeniably so

Now you know even if I could click my fingers to make the world vegan tomorrow yes I think I'd probably want to do about I would accept there are huge repercussions to doing that in other four areas whereas a gradual process

Wins we can isolate them there's a couple of things we can do and again I'm gonna look at UK but the examples I'm gonna make can be apply to most I'd say Western countries let's put it that way developed nations yeah yeah developed

Nations yeah Western developed nations so we look at the agriculture system here in the EU in North America research and animal agriculture also all agriculture is propped up by tax subsidies right and so the the reason

Animal agriculture is sustainable and can make money to Animal Farm is because they're given taxpayers money through the form of subsidies which i think is absolutely fine I think subsidies are beneficial and crucial but the problem

Is when we give vast amounts of this money to animal farmers were perpetuating that system and farmers involved in our system just so they can earn the subsidies to make it affordable so take lamb farming for instance a land

Farm in Wales would actually be would actually lose money every year for the lamb farming he only ate only makes money because their tax subsidies which creates a kind of a false economy right where it's not the actual employment

That creates the money it's it's the taxpayer and so I think that seems like a fairly bankrupt situation especially when that taxpayers money of the subsidies can be distributed in the way that ensures that animal farmers can

Hopefully in many situations transform their agriculture into plant based agriculture and now many could do that we see examples of dairy farmers switch into producing plant meats but not all could do that you know you have maybe

Hilly wale Welsh landscapes again where grown crops is probably not so simple and so it wouldn't always be possible so with what you're saying with regards to the substance their subsidies now I won't go too into it but I genuinely

Think one way to fix that is just get rid of that entirely because genuinely I think in in the economic system the whole point of free-market capitalism is that you make something that sells that makes profit if it doesn't it doesn't

Work so I think if you were to get rid of that you have a two-pronged attack where meat prices would rise which is where where they why they should I think we're when you look at things in terms of a long term perspective if you're

Trying to make adjustments to help media in the short term getting rid of that would mean that meat prices would rise but then you would also have the people that are purchasing it the people that are supplying it might look after the

Animals in a better way have a better quality of care potentially maybe not but it would end up having to it would force it to be more sustainable because it's not having that economic leg up from the government yeah I don't

Disagree with that because as I said that the point here I'm trying to deter away from more the debate about me and more about veganism in terms of the overall products and rather than just focusing on the UK in developed nations

Because you can very easily make that point in the developed nation but if you're looking at from a global economical point of view we're just not ready yet and even with the subsidies and other

Third world countries and other in second world countries that rely on various things it is just not there yeah but to play devil's advocate with the first point you made was about jobs right it was about the employment a lot

Of people employed in this but then if you're advocating to remove tax subsidies in general countries but you're also said there are only three percent of the workforce I'm not saying right over the third world countries but

For the developed nations and I'm also saying that veganism in a philosophical way and also in a practical way can be applied to developed nations in general so I feel like in some respect we're almost a green each with each other here

That in kind of like federal countries or maybe in places like Kenya or Africa where it's not quite as easy or practical to be vegan especially with live droughts and such you're asking this question about in the UK I could

Agree with you but if you're saying globally I would strongly disagree okay so let's say okay let's say in the blessing developed nations then right so you and I because the really the reason I ask this is to generate conversations

Between the US and in a sense of what can we do as individuals and so for you and I living in a developed nation living in I mean wherever you come from regime in the UK or wherever you have that possibly to be vegan right and you

Don't think and some of the criticize where should right now I've received all right and also the criticisms that you had a vegans have been applied to a global scale don't apply to you and I in

Decisions that we make here right so what would stop you from being you being vegan a few for one I I genuinely think that it's my choice whether or not I want to eat meat I think everyone has a choice to decide how they want to do

Things but I also think if you're going to have that you need to look about it in a sustainable way if is might sound with if I could pay more for me I would in the sense of to put that money towards things it's very much like you

Might pay the extra mile to get Fairtrade various things you know from other things is what you you pay even if that meant that you have to go to a specific butcher that has raised an animal to the moment it was about to die

Before slaughtering it you know I think you should always have that right I think there's a lot more of an argument to go vegetarian for with regards to animals but in terms of animal products being used in a developed nation I think

We should still use them but that would also require a much smaller percentage of animals that would have to be subjugated to it yes and so I agree in the sense of well I agree in the sense of that we all have the right to a

Choice right like every action that we make is a personal choice but that personal a lot of the personal choices that we can make have repercussions because a choice can be moral or immoral right and so I agree that we all have

That choice to do so but I don't think that inherently just because we can choose to do so that creates a system of morality in a sense of you know these animals also you know through our personal choice we are choosing to take

Their life from them in the same way that if I was to gonna be throwing up I'm choosing to harm that person and because there is a victim at the end of it that personal choice it's not so simple as saying well I should have the

Right to do it because that right comes at the expense of someone else's right and in the case of the humans their rights and not be being up but in the case of the animal it's their right to autonomy and also freedom from

Exploitation that we grant to ourselves as well I mean so I do agree with the sense that we all have a choice but that choice doesn't necessarily mean it's it's justified because it is a choice again I mean morality is a completely

Subjective thing in on itself yeah you know if you're paid debating whether on an animal has consciousness and has happiness you know happiness yes I would agree we can see that in various types of enemies with behavior patterns but at

The end of the day we humans that have spent the last several tens of thousands of years you know getting to where we are no animal in the animal kingdom has the hint that it has sort of that feeds on other you know animals lives has gone

Maybe this is an immoral decision it just does it to advance itself in terms of complex moral I you know now that we are advanced their species we might not need it as much I again I think if it's handled in the correct way killing the

Animal is perfectly justifiable if that's you know if you do it in the the right way because at the end of the day humans as well as animals we were all just resources yeah well so you're right in the sense of that we've evolved as a

Species right and so other animals in the wild they kill other animals and they don't necessarily but they also do so because they have to and we've and I think Robbie's Dutch that we've evolved to the point now where we don't have to

We don't have to enact out kind of like that killing because we are in a more advanced society where we can make decisions but we also have more knowledge about where we can get certain nutrients and how we can survive about

Animal products and so just because other animals do in the wild doesn't provide justification for us and the sense of we're all resource that becomes a it becomes a dangerous idea because obviously you know fundamentally we in a

Sense are innocent will die and will become part of the world again and we provide through our death if we're buried you know and such but at the same time if we if we take that way of thinking it becomes very dangerous you

Know I think why because we view each other in such little regard and we simplify our role in the world it's simply been resources that allows exploitation of other humans to occur as well oh yeah that does happen and but it

To be honest you know we as humans even in developed nations we use our bodies our minds you know we go to jobs we trade resources for one another it's just the natural transaction in the world you know with regards to animal

Life it and a lot of things it's just another currency in the way that you're trading animal life to have a satisfaction if you're willing to make that then that's lately fine it up to you I think to say

That you shouldn't do something because it does it you know is not right you you need to take out you know who is it affecting if it's affecting a human you know humans are all equal but to say animals are equal to humans that's on a

Another different level because then you're getting into you know here why are they why are they equal you know all this that and the other if you're saying just because something has life is equal to us yeah you know I I personally and I

Can see a lot of reasons why people would agree with that but me personally I I do disagree with that I think you know I think humans we have got lucky enough to the situation that we are able to control parts of the universe you

Know we are able to manipulate fundamental matter animals can't do that I think for that reason we are at least you know sentient lis beyond them it's not about where for the life of non-human animals the same as a human

It's about where for the life of a nonhuman animal transcends our or is higher than the use we've assigned to them so safer for meat it would be is the life of an animal I'm higher than the sensory pleasure we get from

Enjoying them or for clothing the sensory pleasure we get from looking ourselves wearing them you know and so the question isn't are they the same or equal to us is again I'm going back and this is why I said about vegetarianism

Versus veganism because I can fully get behind vegetarianism but with veganism like again the whole point I was making earlier is there are so many animal products that are used from animals that have so many other applications that we

Can't necessarily replace yes why would I very first sat down I said they probably would be fifty maybe a bit longer years before we would be able to transition to that I'm interested you said that you agree a vegetarian is or

You come or you can understand why badgertown could you under can you explain why you understand vegetarian you know like what I can understand the aspects of what you were making earlier with regards to

Animals and vegetarians or in terms of like needlessly killing animals and that's all thing and and the value of life like I can get behind that but I also think you know it that's why it's going to take a few decades before we

Can produce processed meat that we can grow and allow and all the other products that we need to help in medical industries and various other construction type industries they use various types of

Animal products but that technology is still a little way away so if we're talking about right today now I couldn't justify being a vegan but I could justify being a vegetarian I think so I guess I'm a little bit confusing the

Sense of um a lot of the things that you're saying like as byproducts and only come when animals are killed so it's like the heart valves and the pigs or something types of fats and you know you've got all different materials that

Are just used the whether a body is broken down you know you've got gelatine from the bones and various other things that can be used in applications so but surely that would disprove vegetarianism because you know vegetarians don't want

To kill animals so the probably so describing could only come when animals have been killed well I think it would be more you I think we could get behind being a vegetarian because then I'm only going to be purchasing products where

They've used animal products for those other perspectives I'm not going to be fueling you know raising more cattle I think you can reduce the amount of animals that we have globally you know in various different stages by the thing

You would be able to eradicate it now I mean even for veganism even from a dairy and egg perspective the animals are still kills they're still bred into production they still live considerably shorter life missed or killed again food

Products aren't so much won debating for here I'm debating for the air and again like the economic backlash of doing it short term globally you're making the argument for the country and I can agree with you more for the country side of

The thing the UK then the global thing it didn't necessarily specify country on the table how would you handle the sort of animal products that we use like pigs heart valves and things I mean there are there are there are heart valves we can

Use that are not Pig based I mean that one of the reasons we used those because pig pigs are very similar to humans in many ways dnace you know and we said we use them because they're quite a good like for like in that sense but we don't

Have to use them and so I would say that there are alternatives that can be used instead that we know we should use those and hopefully as you said technology progresses we can start to produce these kind of like for like replacements we

Could even produce human you know replacements in laboratories that would then be suitable so I think that you know as technology advances that's you should start to use that technology but there are still

Alternatives that exist today that we can use and why those alternatives aren't used today is mainly because of the cost and economic factors that go into it and I think that's and I think you're probably absolutely right about

That so again it comes down to it comes down to how money's allocated from government and so you made the case of the free market area and I absolutely agree with that case but again the problem with the pig heart valve let's

Say it's cheaper than the alternative that's because the pig industry is subsidized so heavily and so if we stop subsidizing the animal farmers even that will become less viable from from a medical perspective as well and so yeah

Right it's all it all works can have in tandem with one another doesn't it so we wouldn't be we wouldn't have the abundance I wouldn't be able to speak on the raw price of how much it would cost to raise a pig and use the heart valve

Opposed to creating one in the lab it would be interesting to see that the cost difference as I've been and I don't want to lie but like I say as of today right now I don't think I could justify being a bigger even even in even in in

The UK where you acknowledge that that argument can be made let not globally but just in this country I could do vegetarianism not vegan well what we start we from trying vegetarianism them I mean I went vegetarian for three

Months last year just to try and it was fine for me I find that the meals get a bit boring after a while I think again it's all personal choice I also think that you can eat meat sustainably but if you're disregarding the animal life I

Think you like getting rid of the morale issue you could probably eat meat sustainably the only way that we could say eat meat in sustainable fashion is if we reduced it by a huge amount you'd have to be even then sustainable there's

To be more sustainable things we could do with the land than raise animals on it you know that means they're like oh we could so we could use the land that we use for grazing and rewire that allowed forests which would be great as

They can act as carbon sinks which would help with global warmin said there are other more sustainable things we can do with land and graze animals on earth but if we got to the point where you could graze animals and it didn't negatively

Contribute overwhelmingly so that would require a massive drop in consumption anyway to the point where I mean I can't speak on your position but many of us would be able to afford it and you and you

So we'd still be out even for that kind of system was still advocating for a majority plant-based diet anyway or a majority you know non meat based diet again it would be very hard to predict those sorts of things I think spec you

You can speculate but you wouldn't necessarily be able to you know say with certainty one way or the other if you were to do a certain action how it would affect I you know people might just end up doing condensed farming to get rid of

The you know if you have smaller land I think having less land it wouldn't necessarily be that the best solution for that when I mean sustainable I mean the fact that the the animals do have an open long fulfilled life and that they

Are cared for but then at the same time the the products you're using to raise them and what you take out there you have maximum efficiency don't waste anything I think the other thing is in the UK we have a big waste culture I

Think when it comes to animal products like when you look at a cow or a pig the percentages that we use from them as nearly a hundred percent you know so that's good efficiency so I think you would need to have that if you were to

Justifier the sustainability one is is interesting because I mean I think that III perceived that there's kind of this idea that sustainable animal farming it's like animals living in big pastures and kind of free roaming but one of the

Reasons that we factory farm but it's just the animals comfort doesn't doesn't necessarily have a simp act on sustainability and so like factory farming is an example right it's incredibly terrible for the animals but

In terms of sustainability it's one of the most sustainable things because the animals fatten up quicker they take a far less land and so even if you grass feed an animal they require more resources in the long run because

They're alive longer and they require more more land and because they're they're free roaming and so the often the sustainability and the ethical thing starts to overlap because the more sustainable we get the less ethical it

Becomes because we're having to condense more animals into tighter spaces feed them less but fan them up quicker and so it becomes challenging cuz I'd say what you're arguing for is a more ethical form of farming but I'd say it will be

Less sustainable in those space I would change the point I just made and say have a smaller amount of but have them all crammed in and just gather over was the quickly as possible we've seen as African implications that

Doesn't matter why would it not matter because there happens Accela week we were advanced animals they've taken over the planet and flown to the space I've not seen the flying cow but you've not flown to space Eva and you did develop

The spacious the as the species we have and has a species we can communicate with each other a cow doesn't show much form of a higher level of intellect I also think when it gets to the moral thing you know you get into all sorts of

Justifications and you know in the way their people believe in religions and and all sorts of that for me I'm very much of the point of view I think we're all just floating atoms in space we all interchange we're going to die in 78 or

However many years use the resources here effectively while you can you know if you can make some moral choices that make you sleep better at night than do that but if it doesn't then it really isn't going to make a difference it

Really won't make a difference if we kill a trillion animals or just one animal at the end of the day and what about say killing each other or killing say dogs and cats or animals that we wouldn't conventionally kill because

That line of thinking crates and almost an environment we cling to whatever you wanted to them to the meat-eating right when I say you can eat meat sustainably you would form the most me calorific animal or like what you know per cubic

Meter of animal you could fit him to get the most meat so you wouldn't necessarily from dogs or or of animals you probably would farm beef or chickens because they're easy to contain an easy to farm yeah you know you you would do

Ones like that yeah yeah so I think you would just pick the animals which are just easiest to deal with in the smaller spaces yeah that's absolutely one the reasons why we'd probably the primaries when I've domesticated these animals but

In terms of like where you send them from from a moral perspective you said you've reduced life to being this this kind of bunch of atoms so you wouldn't kill the horses and dogs now is because culturally we we've been brought up to

Know that that's bad but for me personally if I went to another country and they served me dog over and have a proper mean and I think I actually think that's the right not the right or wrong there's no

Right or wrong necessary this conversations to the animals that if it's a human I won't exactly and it's good to be morally consistent in that sense because if we have this complete these arbitrary distinctions and we live

In this kind of paradoxical situation where people get so angry right and so I actually think that that in what from from the line of argument are saying that's the most logical extension to that point but but also because of the

Point you're making about if you can make good moral decisions that help you sleep at night then sure but that it it creates a very fragmented society in the sense of we take that line of thinking we can just fight anything really or

Pretty much anything because I say well we're just this bunch of atoms we're just alive we're resources we're all gonna die what does what we do but it isn't because we have a judicial system we have a legal system we have that but

Those rules social constructs and they're in the trillion years none of that will remain we're all just be floating atoms yes but in in the present moment those those industries and those those

Collar stones to society exist for a good reason right and if we were to kind of subscribe to the idea that well this is the situation that trillion years this everything is inconsequential yeah I agree

But that didn't justify just harming anyone have a judiciary system because we want to you know uphold laws we prefer living in a civilized society than one with anarchy but I think you can have a civilized society with me or

Without you know whichever way it loads or the dice rolls will be dependent on what the majority of the population wants but me personally I wouldn't really I wouldn't really care I will happily eat meat yeah but at the point

In then would be then if for a civilized society that we do create these may be abstract but we do create these these systems of morality and so the point I make about where our morality comes from in from a human society would be because

Of consciousness because of sentience because of an experience of suffering and pain we use like intelligence but intelligence doesn't define worth of life because we don't we don't we don't hurt harm each other lie we don't harm

People who were less intelligent just because the less intelligence so if intelligence isn't a factor you know then we couldn't use the fact that what cows you know haven't been to the moon and they haven't done this because that

That's irrelevant to their worth of life and so you know we don't have each other because I think of the cornerstones of suffering and pain consciousness and sentence but animal at least the animals we exploit also

Have those same attributes which is why I think that they should be involved in our category of a civilized society rather than just kind of waylaid if I was to go up and hurt someone I would get punished for that if I was to go up

In her an animal like just one out in the wild you know you're ignoring all like animal protection laws I wouldn't get in trouble right did the reason why people don't hurt other people is because you have a system of laws in

Place the reason why people don't hurt animals is mainly because they're sort of out of reach but in terms of like eating them the system is in place to to support that you know I think for me it like I again we are all you know we're

All on this planet we are just all atoms we are just all biological you know being as controlling a bone suit in a flesh body you know but it would the reason why I value an animal less than the human in that sense is because they

Matter less to me to me they have less impact in my life a cow wasn't gonna go and sue me whereas a whereas another human would in that sense you know that's why we eat another human go see don't they just because they could they

Would though there will be legal repercussions well no okay yeah I think the points I would make at the edge I guess it would be that I don't think legality equals morality you know legality is constantly changing

Constantly evolving yeah and so I guess in the future how we view non-human animals in the sense of the law could very well change do you think that if those laws were to change in the future would that influence how you your

Decision-making then because they banned eating me I wouldn't eat me yeah because I wouldn't want to be put in prison I would follow that if we follow the laws in society because everyone agrees to the code of conduct and we will know

That will be put away if we don't that is only due to a threat of being put away that we followed the laws you know which is it I fundamentally disagree with that but I at the same time I do respect it I feel like that probably

Brings a natural conclusion you in the but yeah you said your baby try vegetarianism and you did it free bumps last year I mean maybe maybe pick it up again I don't know I don't think I could live without milk

Oh she at the point you made earlier about is actually which I will say it right the end is about it becoming repetitive in terms of meals and I think that that that yeah and I think I think you could do a lot I think for me it was

More the fact that I had a limited budget and yeah unlimited toolkit to make meals with yeah and I think in Pompey's we don't have to reinvent the wheel you know vegan vegetarian vegan as well

It's not your you know you are changing what you eat but you can eat the same foods like spaghetti bolognese so if you just make simple changes so take them beef mince up but soy mints on lentils instead and so in terms of like you know

Looking at om it might become restrictive and such I might get bored just look at foods you still eat now and see if you can make alternatives to those so you're not having to worry about oh I've got to try some I've got

To eat this quinoa and kale now you don't have to do that you can eat and abundance of other foods and just make those simple substitutes I really enjoyed that conversation is there any else you'd like to add or no

No I think I've said everything that I said I respect your opinion thanks man it was bad right yeah yeah thanks but I think you come your heads I read respect you sitting down and talking to me and you asked some very good questions and

It was found it very stimulating yeah thanks man have a couple wonderful day you to enjoy our enjoy lineup I suppose YouTube thanks man appreciate

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