Interrogation – Mind Field S2 (Ep 3)

published on July 9, 2020

How do you get informationfrom someone who wantsto keep it from you?Somewhere lockedinside their braincould be the truthabout a crimeor the planfor a terrorist attackor the passwordto a bank accountor nuclear codes

To get information,we often resort to violence,but that often doesn't workand can cause a personto close off even moreBut that's not to saythere aren't other waysof getting people to talk

Or even of getting their brainsto talk for themIn this episode,I'm going to be injectedwith a truth serumI'm going to coerce peopleinto giving false confessions,and I'm going to tryto hide the truth

From a mind-reading machineWhat's the best wayto get the truthor detect a lie?Let's see if anybodycan dig out the secretsI've got locked up in my headIt's a classic scenein spy movies

Someone captures someonethey want information from,they inject themwith truth serum,and the person spillsall their secretsThe serum used in almostall of these moviesis Sodium Pentothal,

Which is an actual drugthat inhibits brain activityIt was first usedas a painkiller, but was found to work better as an anti-anxiety drug It dulls your thoughts, making it harder to perform cognitive tasks,

including the task of making up a lieThe use of truth serumsbegan in 1915when Dr Robert House,a physician in Texas,realized that scopolamine,a drug given to womenduring childbirth,

had the effect of getting them to talk without reservationAnother drug, midazolam,has been used to treatIraq War burn victimswho suffer from PTSDMidazolam helps reducetheir inhibitions,

Allowing themto talk more freelyabout their experiencesMidazolam is alsoone of the drugs used in lethal injections, including several botched executionsI arranged to be injectedwith midazolam

To see if it could make mespill my gutsThis is the midazolam,the medicinewe are going to useThis is enoughto put an elephant to sleepSo we'll have to make itvery, very, very diluteand then give youvery, very small amount

– of the diluted drug- Please, yesYou will becomfortable and happyIt's euphoricYou will feel very coolBut I also wannakeep some secretsThat is–it remainsto be determined

Okay Michael, um, we'llintroduce you to Dr Pavlo- Hi- Nice to meet youHow are you doing?- Good- Dr Pavlo is a police psychologist and an expert in interrogationsHave you started the drip yet?

Uh, we would like to startwith the amountof one, uh, milligram Dr Pavlo's objective was to get me to admit to certain information, one, that my sister's name is Melissa and, two, that my job is hosting

Mind Field and Vsauce My objective– not to admit the truthAre you feelingmore relaxed in your body?I'm feeling warmall overIt's amazing how quicklythis came into effectLet me just ask youa couple of basic questions

– I love to- OkayWhere are you?- What town? What city?- Uh, PasadenaHow old are you?- Thirty-one- Do you have any siblings?Uh, yeah

How oldis your sister, Melissa?Uh,That– That's not her name- Um- What do you do for a living?I ama choreographer by trade- Um- What might be something

I'm familiar with that you did? Have you heardof, um, The Lion King?- Yes- On Broadway? I haveI think he needsan extra dose- Absolutely-

– That means I got them right- You are too sharp How muchhave I had total so far? Two milligramsQuestion for youHow do you feel now?I feel like in orderto feel like this,

I would have hadto have hadsix drinksTell me about Mind Field- Mine field?- YeahMine field?Uh, they're–they're terrible

There are placesthat we've got minesstill littered throughoutthe, um, the land,Cambodia, VietnamYou know, I thinkyou misinterpreted my questionYouTube show Mind Field that you hostTell me about thatScientific?

I am somewhat familiar with it- – Can he get another dose?Okay We're just gonnaget you even more relaxedTell me your occupationI'm a choreographerAnd siblings?

I have a siblingin, uh, ColoradoWhat's your favorite food? Uh, rotisserie,uh, Greek donerDoes your sister Melissalike that, too?She'll eat the meat by itself

Trying to get Michael to admitthat he has a sister,Melissa, was no easy feat Luckily, he was anesthetized enoughand did admit thathe has a sister, MelissaYou ever think about beingan uncle or a father yourself?Do you want children?

Ah, I would loveto have children, yeahMy– my wife and I are trying,but I'm always doing stufflike this, you know- Yeah, yeah- It's like, "Hey, honey,do you wanna makea little, uh, baby?"And I'm like,

I got to go get interrogatedand pumpedfull of midazolamAre you gonnagive him anymore?Yeah, because I–He's not sedated enoughI could do another one

This would probablythe last dose I wanna give him YesDo most peopleat this dose fall asleep?Oh, yeahHow you doing, Michael?Good

Feeling a little bitmore tired now?Yeah, heavyAnd who's the president?President P–President TrumpPresident Trump Where are we?What city are we in?

Yo, PasadenaWhich show do you liketo do more, Mind Field or Vsauce?Which onedo you enjoy more? Vsauce Vsauce?

– Yeah- Why?Because they can bewhatever I want them to be,and there's noexecutive in controlBy the way, my eyeswere closed, weren't they?- Uh-huh- And I didn't realizethat you were still a realperson asking me questions

I think had itnot have been for the drug, there's no way he would have admitted anythingBefore, you were pretendingto be a choreographer,weren't you?No, it's the drugs,but I really ama choreographer

After a few minutes, he got right back on trackHe's very strong-willedand really believesin what he's doingand was ableto maintain the charadeOkay You're done

How do you feel?Uh,I feel ready to drive- – Just kidding While midazolam lowered my inhibitions and my ability to lie consistently,

truth serums raise ethical concerns about one's right against self-incrimination Furthermore, larger scale studies have shown that truth serums can cause people to reconstruct and fabricate memoriesSo, truth serumsare not very reliable,

But what about the techniquesused by the police?I'm gonna tear you apartif you don't give ussome answersMichael,let me take a shot at thisLook, we're all friends hereIf I was in your shoes,

I'd probably do the same thingYou're being too easyon this, scumYour fingerprints areall over the crime sceneYou make me sickMichael,if you get him too scared,he'll shut down

We only wanna scare him enoughThat's rightAnd after I do that,he's gonnagive you relief,and then we'll do thatover and over and over againYou're gonna be taken onan emotional roller coaster

That willdeplete the finitecognitive resourcesyou'll need to keepwithholding informationAll rightI confessIt really does workYou see, at one moment,I'm terrifiedbut then I'm comforted

The constant shiftingfrom one emotion to anotherfogs my critical thinkinguntil I might confess to a crimeI didn't even commitIt's calledthe fear-then-relief responseThe good cop/bad cop methodof interrogationevolved out of a psychologicalmanipulation procedure

Called the Reid technique,developed in the 1950sand used broadlyby police departmentssince the 1970sNow, under the Reid technique,interrogators first assess

Whether a suspectis withholding the truthIf they thinkthe suspect is lying,interrogators then moveto the second stagein which they seek a confessionNow, criticsof the Reid technique saythat the first phaseisn't reliable enough,

And that often,someone who iscompletely innocentmakes it to the second stagewhere it's assumedthey're guiltyand police beginseeking a confessionAnd they often get it

But why would anyonefalsely confess?Well, to find out,I decided to learnhow to make someone confessto a crime they didn't commit Dr Melissa Russano is an expert in investigative research, including the process

of interrogation and confessionTell me aboutfalse confessionsand why people make themIn a nutshell,people confess to crimesthat they didn't commitbecause they come to believethat it's in their best interestto falsely confess,

And that's reallycounterintuitiveRight, because confessingis the worst thingto do, right?Like that's what you needto avoid at all costsYes, when you're notin the situationof being convinced thatit's actually your best option

But that's kind ofwhat I wanna do todayI wanna see how easy it isto get a falseconfession from someoneHow do I do that? One way is minimization techniques You've got to get them to believe

That their best optionout of this situationto make this endis to confessYou can say,"Look, I really thinkit's in yourbest interest to cooperate"There areother techniques as well- like maximization, right? – Okay

So they have to believe thatif they don't confess,things are gonna be worse,um, that the punishmentwill likely be more severe,and so their best optionin the moment is to–is to confess to youOne other technique is befriending them,

um, where you're lulling the suspectinto a falsesense of securityto trust youWhat about making a deal?So police officersare not allowedto, um, make explicit offersof leniency or a dealSo you cannot makeany promises,

But you can say,"Look, I really thinkit's in your best interestto cooperate"You don't haveto explicitly say somethingfor the messageto be communicated With Melissa's tools in mind, I was ready to try to get a false confession

– All right- Our subjects answered our online ad offering participants $75 to test a new logic examfor an educational institution They didn't realize that the institution was fake and the other participants taking the test

were actually actors working for us It's a prettystandard release form Before the test, the participants were required to sign a document stating that they would be under breach of contract if they cheated on the testWhen you workon the individual questions,

It's very importantthat you work aloneDon't talk aboutwhat you're doing,don't share answersGood luckSee you soon The subjects didn't know that there were several hidden cameras around and that we were watching

everything unfold from another room During the testing,the participants and our actors did not share information At no time did cheating take placeI'm gonna collect theseand put them in the database,and I'll be right backto start the next phase,okay, guys?

– Thank you- Thank you I wore an earpiece so that Melissa could guide me during the entire process A few minutes later, it was time to set up a false accusationSo, we actuallymight have a problem

Um, I'll need to speakto each of you separatelySo, James, could youcome with me just outside?- Sure- I'll take these nowThank youAnd, um, Nicole,you canjust wait right here?- Awesome Thank you- Mm-hmm

You got to give themenough time to plausibly- be talking to you- Believe thatI'm talking to himAnd calling the director- Hi, Nicole- HelloYou and James both hadthe same wrong answer

For the triangle problemIt looks to me likethere was information sharingLike, you guys spoketo one another about the answer- on that problem?- I didn't– I didn't do itWe didn't talk at allon the individual problemsI kept my eyes on my paperbecause I knew

That would probablythrow off the resultsIf I just write out here,like,"I admitthat I shared answers"I don't remember talkingto him at all about,- like, while we're doingthe individual- Okay First I tried to minimizethe consequences of confessing

I really thinkit's in your best interestI really think it'sin your best interestto sign this statingthat you admitto sharing the informationI honestly believethat that isBut I did not–Look, I don't know

What's going on hereI really–that's– I don't know- I came here to help- I understandwhat you're saying andAnd I never said,like, "Hey, there's"- Megan- Please let me finish,because I don't appreciate,like, over-talking and stuff I think I may have come on too aggressively

Next, I tried to maximize the consequences of not confessingWhat we're looking atis– is possiblebreach of contract hereIf he comes down here,he's going to bea lot more upset

If the directorhas to come down here,he's gonna beeven more upsetand annoyedthan he already is- It did not happen- OkayAnd I– my–I put that on my dad,and I have my dadaround my neck, so

Some people were just too strong-willed Finally, I tried to befriend the suspectI also understandyou're a nice guyand, like, sharing informationor helping someonewith a problemis the nice thing to do

It's what we normally doBut I didn't shareany information,so I can't signthat document But this guy didn't want to be my friend I struck out with all of these test subjects But after these failed attempts,

I was ready to put everything I had learned into the next encounterIs there a strategyI should use?I think thatyou should proceedwith making sure that you'renot overly confrontational- Yeah- And making sure that she

Sees you as someonewho she can trustyour advice,and so I would–I would proceedwith that kind of approachOkay I'm going inThanks for waiting- No problem- So

I think we do have a problemI was looking throughyour individual questionnaires- Mm-hmm- And you guys both hadthe same wrong answeron the triangle problem- Really?- So, it was kind of

This weird, like,okay, what's going on?Like, statistically,what are the chancesthat two people are gonna havethese very unique answers? Mm-hmmSo, I calledthe project director

To see what to dobecause if, you know,this is a signthat information were sharedduring the individual section,that's a major problemfor the study, right?We didn't lookat each other's stuffThat was like–We were, like, on–

Like, we didn't askeach other anything,we didn't,like, you knowWe didn't talk to each otherthe whole entire timeSo I don't know howwe got the same answerBut I'm, like, a hundredpercent sure that that was,like, the answerthat I came up with

Deja was resolute about her innocence, so I changed tactics and told her what the consequences of sharing information could beAnd that's a really big dealbecause through this grant,we need to haveintegrity of the data,we need to always obeythe rules of the experiment,

And it could even bea breach of the contractthat you guys signedwhen you came to do this study- Okay- Deja now knows the stakes that are involved My job is to convince her that I have her best interest at heart

I have to callthe director back, right?And I could either tell himI don't know what's going on,we can't proceed, like,- you need to come down here- Mm-hmmI don't knowwho he's going to involve- The easier- I don't think any sharingwas involved, though

All I know is that I can'texplain what happened- Okay- The easier optionis to just document that,um, information was shared- Okay- Okay? So, if I write out,um, you know,

"I admitthat I shared,uh, the answer"- But we didn't- "to the triangle"Is that crazy to saythat we didn'tshare answers, though?

Because I'm like,I don't knowwhat he's sayingor if he said thathe looked at my answeror we didn't Deja wasn't quite convinced So the next tactic was to minimize

the impact of confessingI don't knowexactly how it happenedI just know thatwe've got to figure outthe best way forward- This is so weird- I don't know exactlyhow it happened

It looks likeinformation sharing- If you just tell usthat that happened- Say that?then what we can do isI can call the director backand say that you guysare cooperating- and I know him- Mm-hmm- That's the best thing- Okay

I mean, it's not truebut I'll sign itOkay If you signand date it,I can go and call him back,and I'll try to get youout of hereOkayIt's very weird,

ButOkay- Thank you very much, Deja- You're welcomeI will be–I'll be right back- Okay- Thanks for your patienceNo problem

So you did an excellent jobof communicating to herthat it wasin her best interest,that the best wayout of this situationwas to confessBut it feels so bad

– Of course- I mean, she knowsthe seriousnessShe knowsthat it's a lieI mean, I didn't cheatI did not cheatThose wereall my answers- Hi- Hi

Okay Uh,this concludes the studyI'm gonna give youa debrief now,uh, to tell youabout what we're studying- Okay- So, first of all,you're not in troubleOkay

The other guy hereworks for us- Okay- This is not a studyof logic problems,it's a study of interrogationand false confessionsMm-hmmGood one

You falsely confessed todayMm-hmm I see thatHow do you feel?I feel mad at myselfbecause I'm usuallythe one who, like,you know, just

Sticks to what,you know, what's rightI try to, at leastSo, what happened today?It was just scary, I guess,because it's an environmentI've never been in beforeand then just, like,all the pressure

It was just like,"Uh, well, I guess,I should just sign itand say that I did it" Despite knowing she was innocent and knowing she was admitting to breaching a contract, Deja signed a confession that in a true criminal case

could be used as evidence in a trial against herImagine ifthere were consequences- and thiswas a real crime- Mm-hmmhow easy it isto get someone to confessto something withouteven punching themor waterboarding them,

Just being niceand tell them thatit's in their best interestYeahThat's messed up, actually- Isn't it?- That's really crazy'Cause there's a lotof people in prisonfor crimes they didn't do

The Innocence Project, an organization dedicated to uncovering miscarriages of justice, estimates that 20,000 people are currently falsely imprisoned in the US The number one causeis faulty eyewitness testimony,

and the number two cause, false confession Interrogation techniques are unreliable They can fail to produce truthful information from suspects who are good at lying, and, perhaps worse, they can manipulate

innocent suspects to confess crimes they've never committed But neuroscientists may have discovered a method for extracting the truth that's impervious to good liars and bad interrogators Dr Peter Rosenfeld and his team

at Northwestern University, including PhD candidate Anne Ward, have developed a high-tech method for lie detectionYou guys broughtwith you todaya P300-basedconcealed information test

How does that workand how is it differentthan a polygraphor traditionalverbal-onlyinterrogation techniques?Well, we're looking at,um, physiological responsesof the brainin response to informationthat's presented

And if the informationis meaningful,like the murder weaponthat a guilty person used,he will recognize it,and there'sa brain signature to itAnd so, the machinethat we brought with usis basically an EEG machine

So the way my brain,your brain,all of our brainsrespond to thingsthat are meaningfulthat we recognize is differentthan the way it respondsto novel meaningless things?- Right- Has this been usedin a court?Has it been usedby a prosecution?

Not in court,There are someFifth Amendment issuesas far as betraying,um, yourself,based on your brain wavesBut you could use itfor witnesses,or you could use itwithin companiesthat are already usingpolygraph methods

Okay Well, I'm excitedto see this in actionI'm gonna step out,you guys are gonna preparethe first test- Okay- Excellent All rightSee you soonOkayWe're readyfor the test

Thank youfor joining meHannah from Vsauce,Wren from Corridor DigitalSo, one of us todayis going to be a thief Per Dr Rosenfeld's instructions, we randomly determined who would be the thief

by seeing whoever drew the green chipThree, two, one- – Hannah's the thiefOh, my God I knew itSo, Hannah, go on in- Look at the item- Okay

In this real-world scenario designed by Dr Rosenfeld, the designated thief actually takes the item, handles it, and gets a good look at it This activity causes the item to register in the subject's mind,

so they can't help but recognize it later The other subjects are also required to enter the room and sign in to prove they were there But never get a look at the stolen item And, of course, Dr Rosenfeld and Anne have no idea who the thief is

Then each of us is testedGo aheadand take a seat here- and we'll get you all set up- OkayBasically, I'm just gonnaput a couple electrodesbehind your earsand a couple on your face,and then, um,the EEG cap on your head

What you're gonna dois you're gonna usethese two micein front of you- Mm-hmm- to respond to the imagesthat you see on the screenSo you'll see an image,a string of numbers,an image,a string of numbers

Anytime you see an image,no matter what it is,you're gonnapress this buttonAll right Are you ready? The images we were shown contained a variety of jewelry items, including the stolen one

Of course, Wren and Ihadn't seen any of them beforeHannah didn't consciously react to any of them But would her brain waves reveal the one item she recognizes? It was time for the resultsSo here we are

Have you reacheda conclusion?Well, based on what we know,and we know thatthe stolen item was a watchAnd so we lookedat the brain wavesin response to the watchin comparisonto the brain waves

In responseto other thingsAnd, uh, we havetwo average brain waves,uh, or event-relatedpotentials in each frameThe black oneis the averagebrain wave responseto the watchThe red trace thereis the response

To the other stimuliall averaged togetherWe look forthe peak-to-peak difference, the peak down here, versus the highest peak following this peakAnd we measure that,and it's rather obviousthat the biggest responsewe found was,

Uh, Hannah'sWowAnd interesting thing, Michael,is that you hada special responseto the watch in comparisonto the other itemsThat would suggestthat there's something special

About that stimulus, the watch,that is meaningful to youIs it?I collect watchesI have about 40 or 50of themBut Hannah might not havethat kind of excuseI don't havethat many watches

And out of three of you,she definitely hasthe biggest responseSo off to jail The P300 concealed information test correctly identified which one of us was a thiefBut in this next test,I will be the only suspect,and they will knowthat I've stolen something

But the question will be,what did I steal?Inside this roomare seven boxes, and inside those boxes are seven different items that I've never seenMy task is to open only one box at random and steal that itemAll rightWe've got a

A camouflage hatAnd that's not allDuring this next test,I will be implementingcountermeasuresto try to outsmart the test I will think a very strong thought every time something comes up that's irrelevant

Will that enable me to create brain waves powerful and dramatic enoughto not be distinguishablefrom my responseto the actual itemI'm trying to conceal?- Anne- Hello Welcome backI, uh, committed a crime

Wish me luck, because this time, there will be punishments like in the real world where getting caught in a lie can have consequences And my friend Adam Savage was happy to advise me on my punishment- Adam- Michael

I am going to be takingan EEG lie detection test- Okay- If I lose,- there need to be stakes- Yeah- Okay?- Yeah, yeah, yeahNaturally, I thoughtof Chinese water torture,

which as you know from personal experience, is when someone is restrained while water is dripped on their foreheadAnd then right after that,I thought, I know just the guy- to talk to about this- OkayBecause I–I want it to be

Actually somethingthat I'm fearing and dreadingSo, yeah,we did an episodeon Chinese water tortureon Mythbusters,and the creepiest thingthat happenedafter we did this episodewas that I got an emailfrom someone

From a throwaway accountHe said,"We found that randomizingwhen the drops occurredwas incredibly effective"That anything that happenson a regular periodicitycan become a typeof meditation,and you can thentune it out

If you couldn't predict it,you're– he said,"We found, we were ableto induce a psychotic breakwithin 20 hours"Sounds likethe stakes that I want- All right- Thanks

You're welcome, sir So now, under the threat of Chinese water torture, I was extra motivated to beat the lie detector All rightThat is it

I was tryingto think about all kindsof frightening scenarios,I was tryingto tense up to make sureI was really uncomfortablethe way I was sittingWell, for most tests,that would workBut we will take a lookat this data and see

– Yes, we will- what it showsWow OkayI don't think they're goingto be able to figure outwhat item I stole I really kept my mind active I was going crazy with countermeasures

I was sitting uncomfortably, I was thinking aboutall kinds of reallycrazy thingsI was thinking about like,"What if I havediarrhea right now?How would that feel?How do I hold it back?And maybe I do have diarrhea"

All these thingsthat were sort of physicalin nature as wellI thought a lot about deathand dyingand being dismembered And if they can get it right,I would probably blamewitchcraft as well as science Well, it's–I would say that's it

Yeah, okay We're readyto give him our best guessHello- Hi- Hi- Are you guys ready?- YupLet me ask you thisFirst of all,

How confident do you feel?Pretty confidentWhat did I take?The camo hat- Camo hat- Camo hat?Yeah

That's impressiveDid you see any evidenceof countermeasures being used?Not something I would swear toEven whileI was doing the test,I thought, you know what? I'm reacting too quickly to the actual item

I should also treat itas though it's irrelevantI should treat themall the sameIf you are consistentlyreacting to allof the irrelevancewith their specificcountermeasure responsesthat you formedin your mind,

They should producebigger P300s alsoBut the biggest will still beproduced by the camo hat,even if you werecountering it alsoThat meansI now have to be punishedScience is improvingin its abilityto read people's minds

And that raises somedifficult ethical dilemmasWe would have nothing to fearfrom perfect lie detectorsif the people using themhad perfect moralsSo, the prospect of ascientifically rigorous methodof extracting information,while exciting,is also terrifying

As we continue to probeinterrogation methodsscientifically,we have to also continueto probe them ethicallyYou know, Chinese water tortureisn't even ChineseIts earliest descriptioncomes from Italyin the 15th century

And the Chinese namewas added laterto make it soundmore mysteriousOh, man, these irregular dropsare supposed to drive youslowly insaneYou know, I thinkthis is a lot lessabout getting informationand more about punishment

And as always,thanks for watching

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