Holochain Agent-Centric Tech | Distributed Compute Platform | BlockchainBrad | Own Your Own Data

by birtanpublished on September 14, 2020

hello it's Brad Lori or blockchain Brad and today I'm very honored to speak with hollow chain we have two representatives are from the team both Aziz and both here to really let us know what they've been doing and what they plan to do in

This very robust ecosystem that we all know as hollow chain guys thank you very much for your time we have David and we also have Phillip here David Atkinson more specifically is the commercial director and Phillip veal is

A key developer in the hollow chain ecosystem so once again gentlemen thank you very much for your time so guys it's great to keep the Aussie accent great that you are here but for those who are wondering this is entirely

Free for all people and most importantly the premise here or the or the agenda is to provide introduction you know key it to the key aspects and fundamentals of hollow chain hopefully later we'll break it down into key aspects but right now

It's digging deep into the basics and what what these guys are doing what they plan to do so let's start gentlemen with essentially the problem you know I want to talk about that before we go into the depths of what hollow chain are actually

Doing because for you to mean something there must have been a reason why you started what what what encouraged you to to build this ecosystem out especially

Given that you you entered into this space when cryptocurrencies for example and crypto assets already existed there must have been something that really prompted you to really build this out why do you take it to this oh you're one

Of the big things is that hollow chain doesn't have a currency so there's a distinction between a hollow chain which is the platform we've built which is free and open source and people can use it for whatever they like and Hollow

Which is our distributed hosting company so we actually have hardware in this 3,000 of them now all around the world I've got one running just behind me here and that's to provide distributed hosting so you don't have to then pay

Companies like Amazon and is often Google to host your websites you can be paying your friends to look after your website as well that's open has the currency so feel given that you know there's a whole ecosystem or of

Whole framework that's hollow chain itself and you're suggesting that the currency you know that we tend to see that drives startups in the past in crypto is very different hollow chains model but can you talk to us a bit more

About the problem though the problem preceding hollow chain as an ecosystem regardless of the different components what were some of the things that perhaps some of the other startups were doing that you felt needed to be

Improved or tweaked or quite simply changed so that there was a better solution from more the people's standpoint you know you talk about a to agent centrism as a key component clearly that's the solution to a problem

So what's the issues that you see in this face as you're aware one of the big problems with the blockchain projects is scalability like number of transactions that they can get through these and I've seen as various projects around claiming

Much faster rates than we're getting but the for me as a I've been a programmer for 30 years and the concept of trying to build something on like aetherium and those sorts of things it just seemed a bit ridiculous like this idea that

Everything that everybody ever does anywhere anytime is now all in one big blotter and if you look at the size of it now it's it's picobots there's no way for you and I to run a load of aetherium on any sort of normal hardware let alone

A fire whereas we've halogen because our chain is a series of different networks for every different application that you're using even down to so like if you think of like Facebook and that would be one

Hat but inside here you've got groups and things so we can actually split that into multiple different networks depending on who's in that particular group hmm right and that's an interesting analogy too because you know

For a long time we've been looking at blockchain and crypto in a very linear fashion and certainly even vitalik recently try I ain't suggesting that you know soon a theorem is going to be full now we can

Extrapolate that in another time and understand what he actually was implying there but the difference you're making is that we with hollow chain it's almost like the family tree you know this infinite potential – you

Know assert more of the network you know throughout its ecosystem yeah and the network is designed around activity and you use so the other looks when you look at sharding solutions and the naturals like people are applying mathematical

Abstractions without relating to human or agent-based activity and they're not actually so bread going back to your question just in a few other things so there's feel myself there's AA and Eric Harris Braun who founders of whole chain

There's a bunch of people who've been in the community like Matt suti cetera in this ecosystem for a period of time I'd say there's some that there's there's a couple of moments I think are worth sharing so I think like art and Eric

Especially met and bonded over better currency designs and especially how the technology of today married with a deep understanding of flows of value an ability to see value can change the way we live and work

Collaborator and so the thinking about these kind of currencies ten years ago and so there's a there's been across that sort of the closed hollow chain ecosystem so people support as followers but being actively thinking about this

For the last decade there was an idea of building a variable truck supply currency you know because because the perception within the whole chain ecosystem is that fixed supply by its design incentivizes early adopters

Disproportionately and doesn't create the kind of productive economies that we want to live in so that I that's that's one massive driver and it's a what I want to talk to you on that though I hope that's okay and just hold the

Thought of the other we could be going but we could be going for a hundred well I just want to talk about that briefly with the fact that at the time you mentioned a decade ago and at that at that time BTC was king and many would

Argue it still is depending on how you sort of color it and Buick point now but was it also something that the team really acknowledged then when they were doing their assessment of value when they were doing their planning for their

Own solution and exploring possibilities utilizing the technology that was offered through cryptography most importantly through blockchain was what did what I'm saying is did it was the team inspired by some of the challenges

That Bitcoin literally was was showing to the team at the time I my feeling on how we work is that they again a hollow chain whether it's just in the name or inherently in our approach to solving problems is

Holographic so fractals become a hugely important part of what we're doing and how we work and so hollow chain came out of scepter which is I'll let Phil explain technically so that becomes a bit they'll definitely be in in in a

Follow-up interview reason I references poly chain is designed from designing the future and looking back you know so might be scepter might be how we see the future in 25 years time polo chain is looking back 15 years so 10 years into

Our current future and then hollow bridges and says well how you make that work for today and I feel like personally I feel like that's a very effective design pattern because it's much easier to imagine something bigger

Or greater and design the smaller set and so it wasn't so much yes there's some challenges with Bitcoin et cetera but that isn't the fundamental driving up that that's not the fundamental driver what we're trying to look at is

How can computing be done better right exactly now gentlemen you talked about though the finite supply so that's why I was leading to some of those questions as well their date but in

Doing something that almost flipped literally that that philosophy and that's token omec design on its head now you're suggesting through your modeling that perhaps you know looking at more infinite approaches as a fly is a better

Solution he talks talk us through why that is the case it will let's explain what it actually bends first so if you think about big it's like you know you have to mine for a coin and then the value of that coin goes up and down

Depending on how many people want it so if lots of people want it it becomes a more scarce and the price goes up but nobody cares about it anymore and price drops right means that if I go buy coffee with it today it's three dollars

For the coffee tomorrow it's 40 dollars the day after it's five cents you know it's it's not something that you can use to buy normal day-to-day things so not stable not not something that we can be a shore of a

Maintenance of its value and most importantly in that sense is that it rests on the position of belief or the power of belief that's right whereas the the currency that we've designed to drive the hosting network is

Called hollow fuel and that's what's called a mutual credit currency and think of it like let's say you know it's doing an Australian analogy we'll go out for beers on Friday right and I bought I buy the beers so this Friday on 10 beers

In credit because you only ten beers because that's Joe Grant and that's what next week we go out I don't need to pay but I slept awesome so who pays the overall value of the number of beers in there in that network

Is at any one time zero right both times right because it's a credit a mutual credit that's right exactly so then the next week Dave comes out with us again and we need we need more credit in the system because we're going to drink more

Beer so the number of potential beers goes up because I'm willing to front that credit for the week knowing that the next week it's going to come back at some point that's the same that the hosting network so I've got my hallo

Port in my own office here and I'm willing to you $30 a month to look after your website knowing that at the end of the month you'll pay for that so I effectively put

On $30 worth of credit into the hollow fuel system and I have effectively printed money I say so essentially you know the value of trust in in the overarching system of hollow chain is you know what dryers

Hollow fuel for example and what makes it possible that's right so what happens is that more and more people join the network and start to extend credit to more and more customers the the amount of credit in the system goes up even

Though the actual net value is still always zero yeah this remains that sorry which means that as the as the demand goes up like everybody wants to host their websites on hollow now which means a lots more people will come into the

System and extend that and provide that service and extend that credit so there is all that found value in this system and then but what happens is is that the actual per credit value is extremely stable I think that's the key difference

You know that stability in the mutual credit is what I think's attracting a lot of attention right now for developers for those who are trying to look for an alternative token token ohmic model or a token modeling solution

More open systems when it comes to not just open source but also okay open points of value so are you talking about stable you know it also reflects what we've seen in the past when it comes to currencies that have been successful but

You want you want to do this in a decentralized people-centric agent centric way yeah and it's not actually decentralized it's actually distributed oh my apologies yes and we can talk about that it's doing there's tension

Between that right now trying to run did you beat all guys because the simplest way I think that I know cos like because you're teaching people in to me the simplest way of describing the currency design pattern it's in a fixed supply

World you know you have your supply you're doing your best constrain your circumcircle aiding supply as possible so you need the small demand to affect the price but price is the factor that settles the supply

Demand equation yes when you're talking about Holley fuel it's very easy to use the analogy of the sharing economy application if I have a car I have an uber equivalent and I've must supply on the road and demand increases yep

Supply fluctuates a little bit to be episode of price fluctuates a little bit and that price change incentivizes new supply or could incentivize less supply so then supply settles the demand equation not price that's a really

Crucial part of a productive economy because in a productive economy you want supply and demand to be as close together as possible and so yeah you don't want price to be the thing that settles that equation so really it's

Very interesting and obviously we're in a very price driven sort of ecosystem right now in present day when it comes to crypto and you want to change that narrative obviously now when it comes to you know comparisons to gold for example

Gentlemen obviously it being a relatively finite resource people argue you know how that can be accurate but let's just say that for the most part there's a finite amount of that whether we discovered all

Of it or not aside from MIDI or hitting earth but so in in terms of having a fixed supply or you know something that is has properties is a real physical element why do people focus so much on this is a

Comparison when they talk about assets or digital assets and for that for example and why do people focus so much on finite suppliers when indeed perhaps the narrative should really shift to what hollow chains trying to propose you

Know I just think it's well earthly this where because we're in such an abstract world the concept of decentralized money outside the bubble who of people who really get it from a technical perspective but also get it from a deep

Understanding of the banking system that's a small world and creating knowledge transfer from that world to the mainstream is pretty difficult yes I see exactly so this idea that you can say look we've got this kind of money

It's like gold never you know people can kind of get it and move again for us I you know in the audience who's out here listening maybe this is an interesting problem but I don't think the problem really matters that much for us in that

If we can build distributive productive economies and people can experience them as vastly superior to the distributor to the centralized economy is that they're working with whether it's one application and other application I'm

Participating in this hollow chain Twitter wow this is great because you know this is how my personas shift within the Twitter this is how I'm involved in the governance of the application this is the infrastructure

Cost for running this context if you whatever the tipping point is going to be for these holidaying applications what we'll be able to do is have more effective currency patterns that incentivize adoption and use of

Applications so that I think that the philosophical argument doesn't matter so much as in right incentives to be able to build great scalable application exactly I couldn't I couldn't agree more I mean with this we don't we don't have

Enough of this kind of transparent response to be honest with you Dave because right now the most trying to advocate for price you know advocate for pushing the value of their current startup so what you're essentially

Saying is that tech coupled with use case coupled with developers you know really building a system that's what really matters and the essentially in the ecosystem will determine its value according to the ecosystem growth not on

The price of a currency because firstly you know pre not price centric you're more about trying to be stable representation for developers to start to take these really seriously and really start to build this out so that's

Why I want to focus on now for a moment joke us through the developer side of this talk us through the technological underpinnings that really make it attractive for to really start to build on on hollow

Chain and how's the success going in in this very ambitious purpose data one of the things as a developer for a long time and I've always been a bit worried about the centralization of data you know like Facebook they've got two

Billion users now and they own all that data because you literally sign your life away and one of the things I really wanted to get was had this fantasy of like when I write something into my you know my facebook claim I want that data

To be on my machine and if I'm talking to you Brad who have to be shared to you and that's it and this was five six years ago I dunno thought about this idea and then I came across halogen and that's exactly how it works he literally

Said oh there's a chatter that I've just been building and one of the other big things is that we talked about agent centric data before if you think about how many works are you how many websites you've logged into and how many times

You've typed in your first name last name address all those kinds of details you know for me it's the arsons of websites man over my career and that data is everywhere and I'm like no idea where it is never updated I don't know

What they're doing with it and then a long time the the convenience factor you know that login with Facebook oh yeah I'll do that because I can't be bothered filling out my form again though I and we didn't bother reading all the fine

Print either exactly and it doesn't matter if you do because they change it all the time right does it come up when you find your click here because it shows that has a condition so what happens now is that

Everybody clicks logging with Facebook or log in with Google or even logging it github all these kinds of things and what those companies now do is not only do they have your personal data but they track everything that you do on the

Internet everything every website you go to because if you log in on one side and then open another tab and start doing something on another website they're tracking that as well and it's it's insidious and I just I wrote a blog post

Recently where I showed what happens with a PayPal transaction and that's all so what we've done is we've given you back the ability to look after your own data inspector and feel what's really interesting about this is

A lot of people don't talk about how the real the real gold is actually the data itself that's the real core asset in this new and emerging emerging economy and technological wave but I want to also talk about it we've seen things

Like the great hack really exposed and the the inherent monetization that was happening with data so in giving back the people access and autonomy are you also inherently by having this robust data system enabling them to monetize as

Well is there that aspect to it yeah well if you think about what the the these countries on Facebook and Google are doing what they they collect all these like ridiculous amounts of data and then they develop algorithms to

Basically come up with a lowest common denominator so they can figure out something too silly that he don't really need yeah it's disgusting if you think and nobody really nobody's really truthful on the internet

Everything used to use an edited version nobody actually says what they really want to do they don't really talk to their friends using chat apps being really truthful because in the back of their mind they know that you know

Mart's reading it or one of his machine yeah it's the common Facebook effect we want to present the best of ourselves which is not necessarily who we really are so now think about those advertising algorithms right how likely are they to

You how to actually give you something that you're really looking for knowing that all of the data you've put on it onto the Internet is not really true it's a really good point never actually thought about that so since essentially

Their conditioning it to an ideal exactly now think about it switch around the other way let's say that with this is her whole channel it's all that data that are typing is only shared like if we're having an online chat now you may

Enjoy it that data only goes to us three so we can be a lot more truthful about what we've got we're talking to each other of that and once I say is stored on my machine or my devices right right so what could that do socially feel

Given that this is technology-driven literally from you know the code itself but the implications for this for a social for social reform arguably redressing some of the inherent problems of this

Centralized parties and we talking about Facebook that is a global phenomenon but it's also in conversations around the world now it's argued as a global problem so could holo change fundamentally redress some of the

Problems inherent with centralized power well that's there that's part of the idea since to give how do you know have you heard of the term I mean closeable communication I have doubt okay so like David and I was sitting next to each

Other and we're talking there's literally nothing you can do to stop us communicating you you would have you there's nothing you can do to take her up to my message or and for me to communicate directly with David however

You you are over the internet no idea if that's actually you or if somebody's into interceptor that feed and is now pretending to be you and is now extracting data from me right you can go right back to like caveman right once

People got out of voice range we developed this thing called writing so that we could communicate with people then as soon as we developed writing that means that the person who has the written word now has control of it

Within whether or not they deliver it to you or do they change it or below manipulator what do they charge me charge you access to that day that's been closed what we are aiming to do with hollow chain is bring back on in

Closeable communication which essentially is trust yes because if you think about the way that like intentional communities working you usually get maybe 15 to 20 people get together go right we're going to build a

Community and if it's successful it'll grow over time usually gets up to about 150 and then it all starts to collapse because of the people like what do they call it the telephone down you know I took I gave a message and it gets gets

Slowly corrupted as it gets further down Chinese whispers yeah we're gonna call it that anymore no well I did so red but exactly there yet so with halogen because they admit because you can which

Guess because you can text that message hasn't been corrupted hasn't been modified and you can chest all the way back to its original source the what we expect to happen is we'll get coordination at scale people will be

Able to trust that the messages that they're getting from the people in their community that they are listening to me haven't been corrupted haven't been changed because you can test the hash chain and this is really fascinating

Because you know this is also going to arguably change the game when it comes to developers onboarding and then parties beyond that so talk to us gentlemen about the value of this technology now in the in the real

Scenario of adoption authentically because the reason why I want to just get so direct about it is because we see a lot of suggestions we see a low hype we hear a lot of prospecting or see evidence of prospecting for developers

And trying to assume value but there's not a little proof then the developers and daps actually happen you have your own apps as you mentioned so how many do you have currently and how is this starting to really or is this under

Flourish yes so with when we build a hole in China or a hapless we call it the most of the work is still in the front end the UN extract because essentially hollow chain and Hollow are just a data integrity layer you can

Think of it like that it's essentially like programming for web services very similar to using something like you know server lists or AWS certain since that sort of thing most of the work comes from building a nice user experience for

Your customers that if you think about any social network right you have communities posts comments and votes by which they all work essentially the same thing right but they use the experience on and you're doing that is different

Depending which one you're using and what we have been getting for in our ecosystem is that each of those sections like let's say posts a post is a post is a post so it doesn't matter which social network you're using

You should be using the same code because you can do these different groups but people using a particular piece of code and then they're there on a particular group and you can make both these you can you can literally clone

That same code into a new group which is a new separate network with a different group of people on it and then the your front-end and that typically are in using react lately with graph QL you can use the front-end to connect up how does

All this work together and one of the nice things about doing that is unlike say you're using one social network and I'm using a different one we can communicate because the DNA is the same or that the code which which could call

The DNA yellow functionality which means that you have not been tied into one particular company's way of giving your user experience I'm sorry you don't like using whatever it is it using now somebody else shows you a new one

Because it's it's cool the way to do it whatever works on a different device whatever you shouldn't be restricted in not using that because all of your friends are on something else right and feel that's where you come in though you

Know given that you're one of the bit lead developers and there's a lot of engineers in your team but you you're also alluding to the fact that you offer that sort of cross collaborative or more so you offer the protocol itself to be

Able to be integrated in in a multitude of different scenarios in an infinite amount of them in fact now you also talked about how you're trying to build out independent and autonomous systems and ecosystems in

Your network of networks but what I wanted to ask though is how do you get developers on on board how do you showcase that this is a seamless technology and more importantly that it's easy to integrate do you have a

Front-end that's easy to access have you got a tool suite that's simple I mean what are you doing to really make sure that people get it when it comes to the easier ease of adoption ok for developer we use so you know like

We've got Windows Linux Mac the operating systems run there's one called Nix Alice and that is a declarative version of Linux and it's also got some really neat tools there's one called NIC shell and what we've done is we've set

Up a configuration file for that so that you can just literally use they go you type NIC shell and then Holly turned on love and it will set up your environment with everything you need you can literally just start developing for

Hollow chain straightaway take that's all and that's all ready now yeah that's exactly how we work right now beautiful thing about that is that you get as close to parody as possible with the Holocaust that we that we've

Shipped because they are running mixer s what we call holy poor LS so you can't just live why not oh you want to live tonight yeah oh yeah I see that yeah yeah I see that only the viewers may not help me considerably my him yeah so

Those that hardware runs exactly the same setup as we've got in the development environment which is pretty rare to get as a developer normally you work on some sort of development environment and then hope that your

Build system can deploy it to wherever it goes but that's really interesting so how has the feedback been for you feel given that you know you're part of the team trying to make this transition into you know a whole lot of that what

Developers trying to really utilize the systems you're literally building has the feedback being positive and are you seeing influx yet in the uptake from developer community in the initially it was a bit more difficult because we are

From the language that were using is rust which is basically like a safe C sharp version plus C sharp there's my Microsoft like days in first class memories like anyone and people think it is unforgiving but that

Is because it is a compile time language so when you it's completely unforgiving because it won't let you make compiler errors which for someone who is a JavaScript developer it's like well no how come I can't just

Do that and it'll break you know the only way I find out if it's broke things because the test customer told me it's broken and what happens is compiled time every single error is shunt here and it's really good and it's feedback and

Telling you how to how to fix those problems they that could be a little tricky and it was more difficult to set up in the first time making sure you had the right versions of rust and all the other bits and pieces that won't be

There okay yeah but now that we have ha Linux which is our version of Nix and that's all set up for you it's really really straightforward that's good so basically you're making the you're breaking down some of those barrier

Barriers so that people can have that flexibility for different programming languages that's important because one of the things we see with leading technologies as they give you a suite of options do you think in the future also

I would imagine you know given that you've got Nix now that you'll only improve this means of access and the options that they have to essentially start to build the applications and perhaps that's right O's rust because of

Compile state where the sand was okay right that's the big buzzword right now just yummy because I it's a it's a really unimportant thread and at the same time if you go back to really your wife question original question you go

Back to what we're building hmm you think okay so hollow chain framework Oh designing distributed applications no currency builds network of networks you really just say those words just say them again let's hear them again that's

Doesn't play that it's going in my step right so here's my framework for building the distributed applications what we're saying is forget any of the platforms out there this is a framework that you can use to build any

Distributed application you want including Bluffton including botnets good point to add there yeah this this should be no inner core infrastructure there should be no currency because the moment you had a currency the incentive

Is to suck the value into the platform or into the product and at the same time we have no idea we've got some are visions but in terms of mass adoption and what the world will do that there's no idea because it

Really very Paula Jones perspective when you get deep into agent centricity you know when you get deep into distributed computing it's shifting the way the world like we already talked about the potential to deuce collaboration at

Scale at college and so we have to build hollow not just because you need a distributed hosting environment but because you need to do something of some order of complexity to showcase the value of hollow chain and it's almost

The irony because right now people want proof before perhaps you know it's ready for evidence of empirically that it can be done and it's particularly when it comes to those that have that as you mentioned that currency or more digital

Asset which is an anomalous term for just simply as something that's tokenized and can it be purchased on exchange now basically what you're suggesting is it's once again reinforcing the imperative that things

Have to be about a new conceptualization of technology coupled with use case and from that what incentives are so crucial in this and so I think we've talked about before before this idea of you know a fixed supply currency you need

Belief for value to increase in a fixed supply concurrency belief is such a crucial part of the equation belief is important in any ecosystem it just needs to be in the right place also in our design the belief in the developer world

Which is why I wanted to marry that to build on what Phil was saying the belief should be that a developer can build something that was in his or her dreams someone always wanted to make and now it is possible if you get that embedded you

Can have any tool you want right so the believe is in the access as well the belief is in the ease of constructing something that yeah that's that's important but what's essential and what

Truly innovative is like the developers that find us and stick you know ecosystem one way still at that stage that they have wanted to build decentralized solutions they've tried aetherium or they've tried something

Else and then and but what has stuck in their mind is a belief that they want to make something that's different from what they can currently make and so when they find us they don't go anywhere right and so here's the big question

Though Dave and it's really relevant one how do you break that vicious and insidious sort of narrative out there that 10x is you know a commonplace when you put a blockchain bet down you're going to make you know a fortune back

That unfortunately is a real narrative and it's very antithetical to the kind of thing that you're trying to build I mean there's no currency so that for so just even to start with that you're already taking that out of the equation

Because you're saying here's a framework for building distributed applications let's improve the framework or let's build applications look at what we can do here right but now thinking like this but you know we're in that picture is

There any currency if you think about it the way we do communities building the way we run hackathons way we learn meetups the way we bridge the online off community online and offline communities the way we're building infrastructure to

Empower developers how we structure our organization the token of you know the hollow token that is that pre-purchase to credit on the hollow fuel network he's an integral to all of those things I've just described right but my

Question is more about how do we shift the narrative so that what underpins and drives hollow chain becomes the that which is supported by the majority in this emerging environment that we call the crypto sphere to start with for

Example because many people come in with personal intentions to make money and you know many up throwing around numbers like 90 to 95 percent are actually they're really just to change their own

Financial outcome I think if we can get a really clear distinction between and hollow you think about it like this let's say we go to Fair B&B which is hosted on the hollow Network right you can just use your browser you type in

13b hole alert and there you are you're looking for somewhere to stay for the weekend and you make a booking although that was done through the hollow Network and the hosts that are hosting that web site they're getting paid for the

Hosting or like piloting and that that thing's all going on but you personally don't care it was just a web site right however you now buy a property and you want to put your own property onto the fair being being that way now you

Install hollow chain locally and we've got an electron app for doing that so it's super just don't unload it and run it off your gun now you I'm now part of the network so you have joined the network and you are providing hosting

Power to the rest of the fair B&B network because you're running up on your local machine and now there can be monetary incentives in them as well but the incentive for you was that it now he worked there and you are now part of the

Network and if you think about things like lots and lots of you see lots of really cool ideas come online where people can join a free community and they build these three communities and it's all going great and everybody loves

It and then the person who built it realizes that they can't afford to pay the hosting of everybody each month and now you pay a subscription fee and then all of these community groups go run but is the next one that off they go that's

True and we're going for something else free yes yes you can say well the community posts it so there is no there's no essential cost because I'm using this be competing power and despair internet access on my on my own

Setup to provide a small amount of hosting and it's clear with hollow that you know once again the hollow itself on isolation is that hosting platform and then what drives that again is incentive incentivization structures that have

Been put in place to make sure people can continue to support and use the system but fundamentally the hosting opportunities there for those that want to capitalize on being a host in the ecosystem but have going back to what

Dave was saying though I want to talk about more the fundamental Darrow say asset because gentlemen if it's not a currency can you just articulate for the audience just once more because it is so so new and so

Fresh how you would just explain hollow fuel when we're so used to some sort of digital asset terminology or currency if you will but anyway you talked about that mutual credit just really drive home the distinction there yeah I mean I

Would I would say that so in for a distributed hosting company say Brad you you have you want to have an application that it's like introduction to blockchain on you and and and understand blockchain to be able to build great

Blockchain business you've got your application and you're running it on the whole it network so you make that application available and a whole bunch of people want to get it access so you'll have a network of posts and

You'll have people on their phones other browsers trying to get access to this up to this application so you will then be paying hosts for hosting it or all around the world every time this they serve up the application to any of your

Users I you know in a centralized well that's easy you just paint invoice to AWS right in the hollow world that's also easy for you you just pay Paulo but for holo to them provide that network there needs to be micro payments to any

Host that serves any information to any user so it's it's you need a massive micro transaction network to be able to sort support the infinite complexity of that kind of hosting network and so firstly you need to design a currency

That can support that environment it can deliver on the promise of micro transactions for hosts between different between different parties and to be able to accurately track the hosting that was provided that's one second

Is any currency you've got to think about the currency system and the lifecycle of the currency right and so whole fuel has the inside the design is thinking well what does this look like before the hosting network even exists

What does it look like as the network sounds getting up and running what does it look like it is a moves to maturity and what does it look like as it slowly dwindles and is replaced over over whatever timeframe

There's a 2-quart component but a big crux of hollow fuel is as follows hollow fuel because it's purpose-built for hosting and its pricing and value is driven by the amount of hosting activity that has taken place can happen because

It can be used not just by hollow the hosting company but by other hosting companies has the possibility to represent the transition from hosting from a centrally controlled activity to computing being a mass distributed own

Commodity and hollow fuel be the currency that represents that commodity right and I think that's why you clarified it because often that terminological confusion happens not just with college Enke of many when

There's a reticence to talk about hollow fuel as a currency you know in the way you explain this to us now and also if you go through all the videos or the documentation there's a lot of references to stable coin currency

Systems so in that respect do you concede that it is the type of currency you know is hollow fuel an internal economic currency for the ecosystem that you're building and also does it move beyond Hollow does this expand into

Hollow chain you know given that you're also supporting the computational power that drives all of the infrastructure here and there has to be some sort of modelling that supports that from you know a monetary standpoint so hollow

Does move hollow fuel moves beyond hollow because high fuel can be used for holy fuel can have a broader application than hosting but can also be used by other hosts in terms of holy fuel being powering hollow chain it's not necessary

Because if two nodes are running hollow chain and there is no cost to their transaction because the compute power is provided locally mm-hmm as part of our existing setup so nobody needs to be extracting value from that transaction

There's no cost to providing the network because it's a network of networks and there's no cost to the transaction happening because the cost is borne by the by the nodes so there's nothing that needs to step back and power hollow

Chain transactions except for all chain nodes so that they will always be free and that layer that look that way will be provided by Paulo chain without requiring the currents I think it's absolutely fascinating and gentleman

Given that we are seeing this anomalous sort of juxtaposition between a volatile so-called asset you know that everyone's trying to bank on through that belief we're talking about and then they're suggesting that by Nature some of these

Are actually currencies that will eventuate to some sort of stability in the future where they can use it as a currency it's again a normal list because we're not seeing the logic there do you think that because the ecosystem

Is such now in present-day that everyone's still betting on perspective value on and relying on volatility is that one of the challenges of hollow chain in that you not only have to really explicate the complexities and

Essentially break it down into all the different parts and show the robustness of the of the architecture but also try and change the narrative of value so that people aren't perhaps in betting on short-term shells doing short-term gains

Because since then clear to me that hollow chain is not designed it all for that no it's not did the way that we designed the kind of seal going from the vic-20 hot tug and have been translated into

Hollow that would cry stir that I think we advertise it of one ten-thousandth of the cost of the same transaction on the etherium network with the idea that you know there'll be something between them

Okay then what happens is as holo the holo hosting network goes live and people actually start hosting real websites and then the people who have got the who are hosting them can start to set their own prices and say well you

Know I've got cheap cheap internet access and my hosting is cheaper however that may be outside of Australia for example and if you're hosting say like a lawyer's application or something do with medical records or all that kind of

Stuff those things have to be hosted inside the Australian geographical area so within we would pay for hosting inside those areas so the there will be many different prices for hosting as there are currently now you know premium

Hosting is more cheap hosting its cheap and so that the actual value of each individual Holly fuel credit will be will stabilise over time we expect that to take six to 12 months which also these we have reserve accounts so that

We can slowly start to you know we can take up some of the shock of that so that the initial investors who order the ICO or Lanyon now we rewarded but not like ridiculous amounts like the other eye cos promise you know the week you're

Making a decent return well already already though as well Dave if you do an analysis on the price when it were your first I co2 now as you transition with that one-to-one switch it's already been from from a monetary standpoint it's

Already being profitable for them many would argue and many of them already exited in their positions probably given we can see it transparently how the market movements been but I'm just really talking about now in the future

As well not just those mutually invested in the potential of this ecosystem because so many are banking on dare I say the questionable token models that are almost new wants to be securities if you get what I mean

Because or some sort of non equity but an investment in an ecosystem that is suggesting that if there's going to be you know increasing value in that asset you know they literally call them digital assets for that reason so given

That you're a completely different model do you think one of the big challenges is just simply you know removing that idea of increasing value in an asset you know for the moment for the most part when most of these acts that I've simply

Don't have that ability to even state that I think it's a really interesting cause I think I think I get where are you going to this unless I looked at two things is that unless you know how to read the game you're always better

Playing your own game good that's where our our strength is with we're seeing a different world we're seeing the world in a different way we know there's a problem out there to solve you know we know we're you know demand doesn't

Matter which way which angle you look at or which lens you look at we know that computing has a bunch of problems to be solved and we're just going full speed ahead to solve those problems I think like our belief strongly is building

Belief in the blockchain world is unnecessary because it doesn't en is because that is not the thing that gets us to adoption so if you look at like a lot of the projects you know they'll build a partnership here they've built a

Partnership there they do it there stated that and you packaged up like an like a nice Pig for an IE o or a nice ICO or whatever it's alright but it doesn't get you a million users on one of your applications since that night so

For us it's just completely push it forward as fast as we can on technology that solves problems in such a way that adoption is inevitable and so it's like remove this barrier remove this obstacle make sure we've got a hosting network

Set up make sure no one would ever know that it's even powered on a a chain at or whatever just do new things that people need to grow or makes a little sense so Dave in that respect you know in an ideal scenario you wouldn't have

You know a lot of exchanges in franchising trade because the trade is that day to day sort of you know play around with flour price now yes I really get it and I think like for me it doesn't why I don't worry so much about

It because we think like like whether it's exchanges whether it's I SEOs whatever they're all based on deep-rooted psychological behavior right and we you know no matter how many times we we've heard otherwise we're so often

Is people going to take short-term gain at the expense of along so to me there's that the industry just for the record presents the deep-rooted psychosis of ourselves and our species so but for me how I look at it is like okay well where

Am I also motivated by Grady where are my intentions are my actions misaligned and right so it's just an external external view of what's going on inside as all the some extensor worrying about it isn't think the best

Thing is to build something that makes struck systems and structures that renders a bunch of that unnecessary or obsolete you know I think that and so yes sir so being caught up in the whole in the

Whole world but I've also one thing about the world with just the shift Tio's to means the rose and the fundraising structures of 2090 is the most remarkable shift because you take out the most important part and we had

It in our in our which was an initial community offering yes though coin offerings or in each of your icos but at the ICO still had to rely on some form of community and that's the thing I think is just is it has what so much by

2019 is that none of these projects can see succeed without community exactly now ideally decentralized technology and not having a community this is totally antithetical to what you're trying to build exactly and there's so many of

Them today like you that you don't you don't need communities to fundraise and it's crazy yes it's almost the narrative has become the power in itself and the orchestration and collusion but what you

Are a really important point about community but I still want to talk about speculation because you pride yourself gentlemen on having a very structured approach you know your back mapping from

The future in and really thinking about you've given a lot of forethought to this and how you can build a truly the agent centric system but in doing so because of the nature of crypto itself and this it right speculation is rife

How can that what the stability given that speculation implied volatility in marketplaces now if you hadn't influencing if you had an influx in people being able to access that that currency could that actually threaten

Its stability itself now we see that the only real monster once holo is up and running and prices had you know six to twelve ask for stabilized there won't be any reason to buy Holland fuel unless you're going to buy some hosting or pay

For a developer or something naughty there's the revenue there's no investment in the currency itself because it can't see will be super stable so yeah you're not committed I love that answer so can you can you feel

Can you talk us a bit talk to us a bit more about the numbers I think it's something like a hundred and thirty three billion in total supply that has a reason my apology so let's talk about that gentleman because without that kind

Of huge number Phil you couldn't seem you really couldn't say what you just said because they're definitely correlated so if you talk us through the modeling why you set up such high numbers to net to literally say you know

Those who are thinking investment are deluded because this is not going to be that way yeah well said once the once the network is up and running and the hosts have had time to figure out why I have can I be

Competitive but also still make a profit and so that they set the pricing for their hosting and that will happen and because the number of hosts is quite large so the we in it's quite a shock absorbed and that nobody gets to drive

The price and he can't even buy heaps of them and do it like you need to yeah so it so it end up being that the only reason to have Holly Phil to pay for the hosting of your website right it's very utilitarian by design I

Really really understand from what you said and it hops back to a really important conversation when it comes to corporate coins because if we look at the Triad government enterprise and you guys you know as part of the people

Represent now if we look at the ideas of Libre they want to be that corporate coin they wanted to be backed by enterprise and they you know consume external in mind it's obviously not but made the interesting part was that they

Wanted to establish a currency out you also inherent in building this ecosystem out for the people by the people the tech that you know is innovative you still want to have some sort of unit unit you know that represents the eco

They are doing the same so what are your thoughts on when you see other parties come into play governments are now starting to really act are you at all concerned that they could literally overpower something is agent centric did

Some development they're all trying to play the payments game and they're competing for the payment the the payment space because we're in the moment yes at the moment I think I think to go to combine the two responses thing

Is we say holy fuel is just for compute well I mean compute is the fastest-growing Model T in the world and pro at the moment the most profitable industry viable is they like soap so the

Industry that we're looking at shape reshaping and E is the industry where R and C has been claimed at sort of a disproportionate rate right now I don't know that any any government or any other body is really looking at compute

In this way and looking to commoditize it in this way maybe they will at some time but I think like okay we have the chance a bit like Bitcoin did whatever 12 years ago to have a huge first mover advantage in the way this this fuel unit

Represents the the power of computing I just say the the supply design to go from the hundred and 70 per– 70% crowdfund keeps data campaign for the hollow pods so the more hollow parts

That were purchased the more supply and the community offering that was available okay ended up 77 billion and sort of the signal value of that was that at some stage when you're moving toward

Stability polar fuel price would be $1 per haul of fuel and you know we started thought about 177 billion fuel out of the network is a small representation of the total value of hosting but down there right again pre-empting that

Utility in that use case and the right that makes sense okay now with regard to the overall system I sort of touched on this with you feel for a moment I haven't got a lot of times I know I've been talking about so many different

Parts but to clarify right but to clarify you know we've talked a lot about hollow fuel hollow chain and Hollow but there's so many other parts too you can go through them but obviously there's

There's other components like : naught is a term for the members hollow port we've touched on briefly but do you want to just reference more the fact that you are comp compartmentalized in this you know overarching architecture and that

Most likely there's going to be more parts added to this as you build in the future components yes so one of the really interesting things that we built into the hollow chain in inter holidaying is this ability to what we

Call bridge so let's say I'm running a chat application and I've also got my personal data vault so my personal data world is not shared with anybody except my devices and possibly a couple of trusted people that I really trust so

They've got copies of my data but when the chat application wants to know something about me so I just put up a video last week I think it was on a demo that shows how that pH at works without personal data Bob okay and when you

Should add the profile and you know put in your handle and avatar and that that data is stored by the chatter because it's going to get used all the time but my full man is thought by me when the chat up so so David's in the chat room

And he wants to know my format and click on that and that will actually send a request peer-to-peer directly to my halogen though which then does what we call bridging so that is the chat application I've allowed it to talk

Directly to the my personal data bot requests that data and then it goes back to David so because it is like DNA you can connect all these different things together to make your own Frankenstein and build whatever you like so the yeah

The idea of like hollow Nauts and now we used to make everything hollow something right then as that I accidentally called something hollow soul and then realized I had a hollow soul so you're changing the names of some stuff but yeah but you

Get got so good yeah I think like girls like Phil's working on hollow REO REO which is a which is a form of like supply chain and County ok so you know and that becomes core component of the politic Network

That there's many many many other components that have been worked on whether it's alternate types of investment platforms that would then part of the effectively like the modular the building block nature of hollow

Chain where you'll plug different components together and the way we've described a full describe a post is a post or a comment is a comment is a comment it could be input into a chat

Application it could be a comment on a website so the modular design pushes through and allows us to bring information between different applications and so you don't just have Paula chained Parv Paulo fuel and then

Associated organizations you also have all of these components that we build and that the ecosystem and community builds that other people can pick and choose in building their applications right and it makes sense because it

Aligns with verticals in the industry and fill on that note I wanted to ask you mate or either of you including your day are you going to integrate or work with enterprise sectors or with SMEs or any other parties I'm trying to

Understand will you have a profit model at any point whether that be on top of the protocol and then the team that you have now because you talked about supply chain you know that's a really great example of the benefits of blockchain to

You know be of service in the new era the code that you write the first thing that happens is hollow chain runs a hash algorithm against it and that hash is the actual address of the network that you can be connected to so the only

Nodes that can communicate on that network have to have identical code ID down to the bit which means that you can build your Evan in my linear code so however that however that SME wants to operate you know maybe it's like a they

Do like story pocket so your story your honor right right and then you can build into the code every time someone reads it it's you know 20 Holly or you know the time somebody downloads it or doesn't derivative work of it or all

These kinds of different things so the thing one of the other differentiator is a halogen is that we didn't build into halogen how you need to run your business how you need to resolve conflicts or how

You need to check that somebody is doing a particular thing that is up to you build that into the into the code of your hat and that's up to the developers and then some it's almost very Dell like in that sense is that you really allow

For that autonomy to flourish with their choices they have from the code but I want to go back to you for a moment in terms of your own apps now you can literally as a team build apps on the ecosystem of hollow chain and in that

Sense you know create some revenue arguably or or some means of sustaining your own continuation continuation into the future so have you got any modeling in that respect of how you to how you generate revenue in the future yeah um

You just yeah so I think that we definitely haven't touched on it today probably for another time a bit should try and build technology like this from an agent centric perspective you also have to work in a very different way and

I think I've referenced in column interviews before like I spend a bit of time in Alice Springs and four or five years in Alice Springs in Australia nice a lot of one of the things I learned in Alice Springs is you've been sorry for

People around the world but there's a town in the middle of Australia that is you can drive 1500 kilometers in any direction and not get to a city bigger than 30,000 people so it's pretty isolated right a bit of right in the

Middle of the desert in Australia and what you notice there is there are rules set by people 1500 kilometres to the north or people set in the capital of Australia or other places and they make a lot of sense when you're in an iced

Office looking out over a parking lot with a bunch of commuters sitting next to they make a lot less sense when you've got four people in a community in the desert and they sound absolutely fantastic it sounds great to say let's

Provide housing for Aboriginal communities but when the house has been driven 1,100 kilometers and something breaks down and no one knows how to fix it and it has to get shipped back 1,100 kilometers you start to think about our

Wonder of centralized planning control doesn't always work right it is extreme the example saying like we have to build our organization and we have to build the way we work according to the same principles of the

Software that we're building in terms of solid shiny like so think of us as the Linux of the DLT world right okay that's a really good way of seeing what we're trying to build there may be a red hat on top apologize that's he's going to

Ask you that's what I was going to ask are you going to be part of a red hat red hat conversation it may be a mainly the two of us or maybe it may be all unum I think what we're encouraging our team to do and the people that we

Attract is people are passionate about building this kind of stuff and so they're looking for a way to create value in the ecosystem at the moment that's standing apology and standing Apollo as Holly becomes they're like a

Thriving entity then it's going to attract more people who really passionate about hosting and I'll be running the organization I'll be growing it and then maybe Phil will mean we might be doing the Red Hat right so in

That sense though dave is that is the plan to graduate more towards you know a more self regulated or autonomous system Isaiah you know so that we know the operations are you know moving away in that distribution but also authentically

You can literally observe you know decades later that it's just operating as it's designed to do yeah for Halloween you know definitely all the halogen comes for a form of stability and it becomes a community-owned control

Of open source project and we're not Hugh not not a huge way away from that yeah absolutely and I think in terms of like Paula Chang governance works you know like like again the natural living systems you have to start with some

Centralized control right and you then that is gradually reduced and reduced and reduced and so that's that's kind of the structures again that would be used to building you can't just you can't have the focus of having to build whole

Jane holl I feel always things we're gonna cut the and and the prioritization that decisions need to be made to get there we need a formal centralization but over time that becomes distributed across the community whole change that's

Right yeah that the idea is to be looking at the world the way it shifted in 40 years time right I'd be proud of what we've built but also be super active in building components of the ecosystem because

That's that's what we're all passionate about right and what I like is also you start with the ideal and then you work on how you make it real and that's exactly what you're doing now in terms of in terms of the verticals we touched

On one from from you feel that with supply chain one of the other verticals so in the readings I've done things like medical come up I D mesh networks surely the possibilities are endless when it comes to working with current verticals

That exists for the potential of this when and for developers to really optimize the code and integrate the current systems so that you can start to better the outcomes for you know the mainstream yeah exactly like you pretty

Much everything that exists can be rewritten in halogen that and that's that's cool yeah so we have a thing called the Commons engine as well and they are they're going to be coordinating a lot of that common

Functionality that can be used across different things like you mentioned medical records on you know that's an obvious agent centric kind of application that's going to get built pretty soon things our supply chain and

They're very agents entropy goes well well you know like we're looking to doing things in the airline industry and all sorts of stuff so mmm talk us through they talk us through this right how do you sit you know I'm so

Fascinated in hearing not only how you so transparent about it but you're not you don't seem to be the to the speakers in the space who are advocating for you know significant PR every time there's an announcement you just don't come

Across like that and that's rare but also you are going to be making some significant partnerships you're going to be doing some really innovative things with different vehicles as you're alluding to Phil so how how does it sit

With you when you are doing PR when you are making announcements when you've done something real when you know there's going to be a reaction to that and people are going to FOMO as you caught they're going to react in this

Face and get excited every time there's an announcement are you cautious in this sense because you're really building things and doing real things but you know there's also the emotional

Response yeah very much so like we we we don't go around announcing partnerships and things other but that's just something that we're doing in the background so that we can build things what we do announce is hey look this

Works and check out this like the demos that I've been putting up was like this actually works and this is a builder in that way we have developed the camps and pepper column and learn how to code mmm for hollow chain that sort of thing and

That's not no we don't say there's going to be partnership with Mozilla or whatever something like that we just build stuff and then let people figure it out because it's not about we try not to do the phone lighting I really

Respect that I mean that's very rare hmm yeah as I said like did you know there are people who are better at their name than us so let's just stay you know I'm a big believer in you build teams around what you're the uniquely capable of you

Then enhance your limitations and you minimize your weaknesses right and for us our unique strength is the way we see our to see the world and technology and social systems that that were using to be able to get to what we think is a

Better outcome for global coordination at scale and yeah it's just it's not it's not our strengths there are people who are really good at it there in any industry there are people are great and they're all these people are great at

Fake it until they make it as well I'm sure it works and I'm sure it works for a lot a lot of business owners it's certainly how the services biz the industry works but for us it's kind of the opposite we think that to really

Sustainably create this shift and see mass adoption that not only do we need to be able to build the protocol a framework for distributed up but then we need to be able to build great examples on top of it we need to show staff

Working and we need to then make it so easy and have the incentives so well aligned that you're drawing people into the structures of a different and better world and possibly to you know right and Dave possibly in that sense this is

Where you really put yourselves forward in that first mover position because while so many you're actually adopting the idea of fake it and until we make it or fake it until we break it or fake it until we we

Possibly make it you know whatever those narratives are put being putting forward and all these in you know questionable PR approaches with you know questionable start partnerships that are all of convenience for the short-term what is

Clear with you is that you're playing a very different not even game you know you're literally assuming a different mindset as a team where it's all about proof first and proof second and proof third and it

Sounds like a lot of the rest of this stuff this happens in crypto is just noise – you're right okay point taken so I just want to talk to you really quickly about you know the type of the road map now because once once it was

Hot you know in terms of the token now it's moved to hollow fuelers the core conversation stable currencies part of the narrative as well what can we expect gentlemen in the road map in terms of whether it be core technology core

Milestones at a plant or even the transition into more seamless adoption of holo tools for developing it's good question it's been a big part of tension in a community over the last six months because we went from moto map with dates

And times into we with where we don't have a date but we have a clear deliverable which is that we want to move to open alpha which is 5,000 hala ports around in the world being run intestine that as this series of

Requirements and the most pressing is that networking supports the ability to be able to run 5,000 and holler quartz power in in any network configuration out in the world I think that that's what we're going for because we're

Tackling problems that no other what chain projectors needed to solve and really no other tech project has had to look at in the same way as us we don't know there are a few unknown unknowns a lot less than like 12 months ago but

Still a few which means that setting dates just sets up terrible expectations so what is insert say this is what would get to so here's our target open alpha these are the five things that we have to do

To get there we've got videos writing about it and then we publish our weekly developer progress as well as show all of our developer activity and so the convergence of that eventually gets us to love a point of when hold shift we're

Getting closer and closer every week but we all know we have a date we've went out when it's you know in our sprints we can save this is exactly going to happen in two and a half weeks time so essentially they're estimates you know

They're ballpark you know in the roadmap but what's important is you're showing the runs you know as we step on each run you know there's more evidence of development towards that benchmark and that's that's really again quite rare

And I sound like also you're innocent to give a finite time because it puts much pressure on on everyone whether it be the speculator whether that be the one who's supporting that as a developer whether it be you guys as a team perhaps

There's no need for us you know specific time but more importantly just to show you are developing your you're building yeah and I feel you don't want to jump but I'd say that was the one thing that comes up from the community isn't a good

Argument is this idea and you know again in psychological research it's funny you you aim for the stars you set an impossible deadline and whatever you reach the moon or whatever the whatever the phrase is I'd say that for us that

What we have is a group of people that are incredibly passionate about having a collar chain applications working in the world we don't need we having a date or not makes no difference to us what we want is the stuff that we're building

Right all right and what we need to acknowledge is the complexity of what we're building and a build process is huge so the date it's the date does create a pressure because it's a reinforcement because having something

That's slightly unachievable like we will do this tomorrow and unachievable in that you can't say a year ago you couldn't have looked at where we needed to get to and rationally and logically written out all steps

Because they've never been done before this is true who are in the innovation having when you've already got people who are self-motivated and desperate for the thing to exist that that is just an unnecessary tension in that you're

Already worked in as hard as you possibly can to get there so for us the dates just became yeah unnecessary in a whole bunch of ways and what we really won't get to is clear prioritization good ways of working effectively run

Developer teams so that we're churning out improvements which ain't where we're solving that unknown unknowns and we're getting to we're getting to alpha as soon as we can I've got another sense when the

Predominant phrase is when moon for the majority you know of participants in telegrams for example or in you know the majority of status because there's a real impatience when it comes to growth in price of many projects as you both

Would know now are there any other things that you want to mention in terms of you know the planning you mentioned you're not going to give specific dates but there must be things that you want to mention that you're excited about in

Terms of what you're doing behind the scenes now you know the green dot on the hollow core that I've shown before that indicates it out what a magic update of the holla portal where system is now working so that's an element so that's

Great this is yeah it's I think the best way for your audience to connect to that is just every week we what we have what we publish our development if ax T but we also do a reflector or reflection through our deaf pulse we talk about

What we've achieved and what and what we haven't achieved over the course of the week we have a mas with feel on our new college aid forum will build a forum as a bit more of a discussion and reflective space for building community

Rather than just rather than telegram but yeah I did I would think if we think about the groundbreaking them nature of hala Cheney and of Hollow and of hollow fuel end of the applications that are building on a already there's this every

Week there's something that you think Wow this multiplied by 10 or this happening here or this being connected to this this can really reshape this industry you know aviation can change

Disaster-relief can change IOT can change transportation can change so it's yeah I I think that it's not so much one of the two or three things moving towards magnetically excited about it's more that every week were just working

On stuff yeah and and much respect to you both you know you're making this very clear so essentially it's when you've done something you'll let us know and that's unconditional no again you're pretty hard line in it and it's rare and

We need more people quite simply taking that approach I think now gentlemen you raised just over 20 mil I think when it did the ICO how are you going with funds you know you've got to pay people in the system you know in your team you've got

To be sustainable do you have a runway of funds from your ICO to keep going here's what we're working on it where we've got a five-year plan in place and yeah we just we just work good okay so you don't we don't have to worry that

All the team are going to suddenly run out the door because they're not getting paid no ok that's important now with regard to I guess you know discussing the centralized aspects is there anything you'd like to mention in terms

Of you know the predominant dichotomies ation in that narrative of valorisation of decentralized versus centralized especially when you're about distribution are we missing the mark gentleman entirely when we do try and

Make that can pack on that comparison and contrast of the two terms yeah we really care so much about this centralization versus distribution thing it's more about the agents interests of the other like giving back

Accountability to people and people owning their own data and being accountable for what they do well whether about that so the centralized system will do centralized it's not really the that's not what we're aiming

For we're aiming for people to become more aware and accountable of their own their own data on that I mean to their own action it's yeah right I know all the technology is designed to do that as well

You're literally enabling to be that the point of value the technology allows us as users to create our own networks it allows us to use a tech to build our own infrastructure so it's exciting to think what the future

Is coming forth for hollow chain gentlemen this has been a really long interview and I sincerely thank you for your time today to let us have a more replete understanding of what you're trying to build and what you're doing

Now there something you'd like to say both of you finish off to just reinforce what you stand for word hollow chain yeah I'd like to just finish both the thing when people talk about and when the world talks about a concept to

Centralize or centralize being the most important thing already you've moved away from building anything that could possibly be adopted because centralized technology can lead to two sort of decentralized technology can lead to

Centralized societies or centralized power or centralized control and so things like what what what matters to us is that we can build a world where people matter and people knowing they matter because they can control what is

Theirs to be able to control they can operate what is theirs to operate they can use what is theirs to use and they empower to build these networks so they can collaborate communicate work at global scale with a local field that's

That's it well said what about you scuse me what about you field what would you like to say to those people from the dead side of things at least and the tech side to reinforce you know the value of hollow chain I would say that I

Really like the the biomimicry approach we've taken in that if you think about your body would the cells in your body dry can you point to the master cell you don't have fun what happens is that the cells come out of stem cells and

Depending on the signals and the food and the energy and what they get from around them they do a particular thing like how hollow chain applications will work in there like that I was talking before about

Outback Australia things out there are completely different into the city so a holiday map that was born in that area will act and operate differently to one that is used in the city and that's what we're that's what we are trying to bring

To people well guys obviously that analogy you know is really pertinent right now because we're seeing duplication the cloning of what already is being the real value and that is that knowledge in

That the sameness when it comes to the potential of this tech really it behooves us to translate that in the social sense in our own agent centric approach what we do with the code is what matters but fundamentally of an

Analogy of cells comes down to the sameness on how we appropriate that is what matters so gentlemen you're changing narratives you're literally trying to use chat tech to enfranchise and empower us as people in a way it

Hasn't been done before it is some would say idealistic you're saying no you're saying it's realistic because it can be done now and it's exciting to see in this crypto don't mind domain quite sincerely that we're talking about

Something so revolutionary in this context social reform born out of tech that can actually in franchise more than just you know financial position but more importantly a social one so thank you gentlemen for being part of this and

It's great your Z's it's great that you're leading a conversation like this iDEN searly wish you all the best I hope in the future we can have shorter conversations that have really focused on different aspects of hollow chain

Fantastic you have been pleasure thank you very much thanks guys

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