F2Pool | World’s Largest Crypto Mining Pool | Thomas Heller | BlockchainBrad | PoW Cryptocurrencies

by birtanpublished on August 15, 2020

hello is Brad Laurie or blockchain Brad and today I'm speaking with Thomas Keller he is well-known if you know anything about mining pools he's the global business director of f2 pool Thomas thanks mate for being here to

Tell us all about what you do as the global business director Brad thank you very much always great to see another Aussie in the world of crypto Josie's very very grateful to be here today I'm looking forward to the discussion

Oh maybe give a slight small background about f3 pool as a company so actually we're a mining pool so actually you know for Bitcoin in theory and litecoin and many other currencies as miners all over the world but the blockchain networks a

Very competitive now so they have to the miners have to join a mining pool so we have a bunch of minors with our mining pool we support 46 currencies and basically my job is is interfacing with them

Understanding their needs working with them to bring to our pool building features for them and just make them have a very smooth experience so that's basically what I do every day okay and that sounds like a very busy day now

We're gonna try and unpack this as much as we can but for those who are listening some of you really clear this is entirely free this is all that information and just allowing people to better have a better understanding of

The importance of mining cause what they do and more importantly also exploring and extrapolating is mining itself now POWs that's a big deal when it comes to proof of work we know that's the original iteration for all blockchains

Out there that have that connection crypto your slogan on the website is the new mining experience so do you want to just touch a little bit on what is a mining pool because you are the world's largest when it comes to crypto and just

So that people who are unfamiliar with this can really get a hold of what what it is okay fantastic I'm gonna use Bitcoin as an example just because most people are familiar with Bitcoin okay so back back in 2009 to 2010 when it was

Mostly Bitcoin was for hobbyists right actually – could use their CPU at home – actually to mine big Queen over time as Bitcoin became more and more popular we move from CPU through GPS or graphics cards and then further on in 2013 and

Onwards people that actually make dedicated devices called ASIC ASI see and they would actually only mine Bitcoin or anything with a char to 56 algorithm so okay if we look back to 2009 you know maybe you have 5% or 10%

Of the whole between network but nowadays it's just not feasible for an individual minor to remind themselves so if we were to take a new gen machine maybe a Watts minor M 20s or a bit main F 17 I was doing the calculations with a

Watts minor you maybe have a 1 in 16 million chance of mining a block so to mine the block that's when you get the block reward and which means if you run this machine for the next maybe 10 years you'll never find a block so that's the

Primary reason why people join a mining pool so by joining the mining pool each of the – share their computing power and if the pool itself mine's a block then the reward is distributed accordingly so in that one what's miner example instead

Of waiting 16 years to get one block and getting a lot of money you would actually get daily payout so a very small amount but that would add up over time right now I think maybe what's mine it would make around seven to ten

Dollars per day take away a liquidity cost and then then a few dollars left over profit got oh that's I'm every reason yeah so so basically it means that they can have more revenue on a daily basis as opposed to doing

Something you know trying to solve those cryptographic puzzles alone and you know how it takes such a long time to do it so you know we're gonna explore what's involved in getting into one of these calls now what is interesting is the

Control concentration as well I had a look at the information available on your website and just other stuff I found China still number one when it comes to you know having that dominance you want to give us a break down a

Little bit on where in the world you know that there is that prevalence of mining pools and you know how important China is okay cool this is actually one of the hottest topics in general in the mining

So firstly there's two parts one is where are the miners themselves located so as f2 pool around 75% of our miners hash rate is coming from China and 25% from outside of China even though we were founded in China were becoming a

Global pool so the first part is the miners the machines themselves second is the pools actually I will just point out a very very useful report called Queen shares so they produce a report twice per year and they really break down in

Detail different regions throughout the world I'll give you a high level around 60 to 70 percent of the Bitcoin hash rate is in China I would estimate around 20 to 25 percent in Europe Russia Middle East

And around 15 percent in North America and in scatters in different places of the mining pools so I'll say it by order of size so f2 pool as I said the proportion pool in probably has a high proportion in China btizzy.com a high

Proportion in China and some in Russia and pool mostly in China some in North America slash pool is one exception in from Czech Republic and they have a – all over the world so actually from a global level I would say slash pool f2

For bbc.com and pool and maybe via BTC have the most proportion of non Chinese hash rate okay so do you find that it's growing also that the if you mentioned even though it might be in certain regions in fact is

Becoming more decentralized for them or there's more parties involved globally so is this number growing where it's expanding around the world because I notice countries like South America for example you know they're saying to come

Up a bit more so is it is that trend growing or because a lot of people criticize so the monopoly of China you know if we go back to this tap 2017 or you know even before so what are your thoughts on how we've evolved I think

Firstly it's a very valid concern so I mean I'm based in China so and I've been here a few years I speak Chinese I love China right but I don't think a large amount of cash rate centralized in a single country or location is good for

The network we definitely not at the level where it's a threat but if we're at like 65 percent in China I would say there's one very important thing in China there is a hyper season where during the summertime there is abundance

Of water so actually from end of May to November like there's just a huge amount of cheap power in China then outside of that period they have to move the machines to other parts of China so in 2008 2019 we saw an increase because you

Know the manufacturers are also in China so they can get the machines putting the farms very easily but in the past few months we've seen more and more farms set up by in Kazakhstan in US and Canada Texas was a real hot spot right now

There's big companies layer one northern data Cruz Oh energy immersion systems a lot of them popping up now you know Americans always very loud and confident so they're always like sharing happy bedding so it's still a bit yet to be

Seen but in Texas there is there is a cluster of starting to grow yes and a lot of people are talking about that now in terms of energy costs you mentioned at the hydro I find that really interesting because that correlates with

A very important event that is coming up for Bitcoin in May as well and we'll talk about that later with the having but in terms of comparisons to the costs of that hydro power or imagine it's a lot cheaper in that period of time if

There's a surplus of you know if the war is you know generating the power so have you done an assessment of energy costs in there's other regions like Texas for example are they going to be competitive you know in that sense I'll share with

You so first thing we have to consider there's different models so some miners will set up a mining farm like a data center and put their machines inside and keep the rewards for themselves some people set up there's mining farms data

Centers as a core location hosting facility means other people put their minds inside so there's kind of two price points we analyze one is the electricity or power cost price second is the hosting price they were charged

To clients okay so for China during that hydro season they're kind of hosting or all the management fee of around 4 cents or slightly less for the non hydro season it's more like five point one to five point four cents now during the

Non-hydro season I would say on a global other countries are very competitive actually China does not have a huge price advantage in a non hydro season whereas in the hydro season at four cents it's very competitive

Four cents where could you get your machines hosted for Russia Kazakhstan Middle East's maybe South America it would be quite rare to find in North America having said that there's guys in Texas from what I've seen I need to look

Deeper into this but one to two cents as a energy cost price is doable in North America in Texas it doesn't mean it's very common this guy is doing innovative things with natural class natural gas and the flaring of that and reusing that

Which is good in general and they're getting relatively cheap prices but so to summarize hydro season in China is definitely a point where they're very very competitive and outside of there not so much prior it's really good to

Know and it's also good to hear more a source of energy of being used like water and light gas for example and also we're talking solar in the future to imagine as well in different ways so is exciting to hear that there is a less

Sort of I guess environmental concerns with the means of the source of the power now let's go back a bit more you mentioned interesting countries like check the Czech Republic even Iceland Russia Georgia Japan they come up now

How important are all of those parties when it comes to you know really driving the the mining itself cuz I still want to understand this in terms of making sure that there is a degree of fairness in this process you know you being in

China obviously know what's going on there but are you paying attention also to those parties that essentially are the players in the space and have been for some time yeah so we can kind of look at the

Supply chain so from the very beginning it's this very specialized chips for the ASIC machines they're manufactured in South Korea with samsung and tsmc in taiwan so some of the so for example bit main what's mine in Canada you know

Silicon are the biggest manufacturers so they get the chips from there but those four manufacturers already in China engine and Beijing and Wuhan okay so the production of those new gen machines is centralized in China which gives a huge

Advantage to the local Chinese – so what I've seen last year is that and if you if anyone wants to look at the hash rate from 2019 around April to October it went from about 40 X 1/2 to a hundred plus that was a lot of new generations

Coming online China my Chinese miners were able to get out early and the non Chinese – bit later you mentioned a few countries so Scandinavia Iceland Norway Sweden they've actually they probably popped up around 2017 2018 just very

Competitive power prices good regulations and and clean energy and in 2019 was definitely a big increase in Kazakhstan Russia always has a new mining farm set up but it's kind of very grey it's like I would say as a miner

The place is way if if tau is equal across the board you'd love to set up in Scandinavia North America it's just a lot more clear and transparent and regulated but the Japan you mentioned I think is a company called SPI crypto and

GMO previously getting big into it but it's not like the mining is actually happening in Japan because the power prices are too high but they've got funds coming from there they're setting up facilities in different locations

Basically it's a battle for – to find cheaper power in stable and safe locations as well as by newer more efficient more powerful machines got it and it does seem also Thomas that you being based in China you have the

Competitive at competitive edge because not only do you have the great price price point and that's coming you know soon as the hydro season kicks in but you also you know the China produce those next gen hardware facilities of

You know that are really going to kick start the next you know next move the the potential for this to really move forward because obviously the better probably the machines the more successful those mine is going to be and

More successful those mining calls gonna be so do you feel that China even today still has that you know that that front-running move that I guess pole position in in the race they do have it right now considering from the mining

Perspective I mean the other very important thing to consider is just the global economy I mean I've seen last week with the Bitcoin price Bitcoin is still heavily impacted by what happens in a global economy and my point is you

Know just comparing the responses with the couette virus from the Chinese government and maybe the US government it does seem the Chinese government has a better handle on it and it really does seem that they may come out of this in a

Stronger way so from both perspectives of the mining the Machine set up farms but also the glut the economy as a whole right now China is you know is a better position yeah right and we're gonna talk a bit more about that you being in China

It's gonna be fascinating to talk about just you know how the sort of virus is playing out there what impact it's having because you are literally there that's you know there's no one better to really talk about that but if we move

Back to just understanding the scope of mining pools for us for a moment now you're number one in the world for representing mining pools but there's a lot of others so how important is it to have that diversity you mentioned pool

In BTC and Paul and the list goes right on but is diversity a boon is it a good thing to have all of this and you know do you monitor what they're all doing as I am watching them very closely always knowing what's happening where they are

What they're building because okay and mining pools with a large amount of hash rate is a risk to Bitcoin because if those mining pools did decide to collude together maybe do malicious things the Bitcoin network it is a

Potential threat on the other hand actually knowing the people behind these polls they disincentivized also to do anything malicious to be a queen I mean the guys have made these mining pools have been around Bitcoin for many years

And they want to see Bitcoin grow but that's for me knowing these people the between different mining pools there's not a huge amount of difference I'll just quickly summarize for everyone one key thing is which coins they support so

If the pool supports 46 other pool support in general between two to ten so that's one of the things we kind of prioritize when it's working with different powr decks we love Bitcoin of course but supporting different projects

Other ways to differentiate is your website add what features you have do you have profit switching pools do you support merge mining what is your payout scheme so PBS payout ski means pay per share it means so Brad if you

Have some miners no matter if the pool mines a block or not we will still pay you out the same amount every day okay so that reduces your variance remaining funds are social useful because they want to protect their cash flow whereas

In other pools maybe 2 ppl NS paper last-known share they pay out if they might a block so if they mined more blocks than expected the miners will get more rewards but on the flipside if they might list a bit unlucky your mining

Revenues is less so that's a key differentiator and then I would definitely say the final layer is the service the community stuff like hosting events making sure if – I've issues just solving them fast even to the point

Where we sometimes get approached by miners all over the world to actually go to their farms help with their setup recommending software for management all this kind of stuff that's the final layer that really sets my nipples apart

Right and one thing that was very clear is you do have a lot more you know you're associated more startups or more coins what's the kind of process for assessing whether or not you're going to work with

These because I just wonder you know there must be some sort no almost finance lab style you know where they just go through rigorous research or you know really assess the validity of that startup yeah yeah we

Have a kind of a kind of a checklist to kind of get queens on board the main things we would consider is so actually similar to say a by Nance or an exchange we would look at the team the technology the project just like any any exchange

Ring investor would do that's very important and the other thing is actually the mining site so how much dollar value of the coin is produced per day you know we may love this project but the the revenue is so tiny we have

To really make a decision is it worth to list actually in some cases we will on another hand maybe because of whatever reasons there's a huge amount of daily revenue created from this claim per day we call it pure W produced so that's a

Factor and then just kind of looking at what machines would actually mine this coin so we have different coins of different mining algorithms everyone knows Bitcoin the kraang – Bitcoin SV is sha-256

But then there's plenty of other algorithms so maybe we have a coin already that's aborted by this algorithm so there's my machines dedicated to this so it makes sense at other Queens for the same algorithm right okay and

Obviously you know one of the key parts of what you do as the leader in this space is offer it to so many and we will talk about some of those now if we go back though and explore some of them now why some of the ones that come to mind

You mentioned you for alluded to a big event in May with the hydro and that is the having but there's also some big ones that are having a harbinger for then in April the likes of BS bsv the likes of Bitcoin cash as I understand so

You want to just touch on those the importance of having events as well and are you really paying attention to obviously hash power looking at you know what's likely to come from a happening as well yeah yeah actually e theorem

Classic had their block reduction earlier today so wasn't a halving as such but the block we will reduce from four et Cie to 3.2 et Cie so that was earlier today having uh I would actually say for a Bitcoin miner like the having

Is the most important known events areas as you said Bitcoin cash and between us you will have their having its projected to be early April around the 10th of April the reason it's originally the the three

Blockchains Bitcoin Bitcoin cash will be clean sv we're kind of the same block number now because more hash trade has been getting onto the Bitcoin blockchain it means blocks are found faster okay so actually a way it sorry

I think I mixed up the flux the blockchain has got a slightly different levels so if Bitcoin cache frequency will happen around April 10 so if a Bitcoin I mean think about as a minor you you set up your mining firm you have

Your mining hardware you have a lot of costs your reward is halved so are you gonna ROI on your investment that's a very important thing to consider so I would say mine is like buying higher in the last month or two this is something

They have to really think about now there's definitely people in the community who are very confident very bullish about the Bitcoin price increasing Post having I mean we're in a very special time now in the past few

Days with everything that's going on but for me the having is a bullish factor because naturally the supply is decreased from 12.5 Bitcoin per block to 6.25 so you would expect less selling pressure and from 2012 just 16 block

Carvings they were kind of in the middle of a somewhat of a bull run okay now Bitcoin has other things to worry about I mean the stock market recently has been going down betweens price has been going down maybe that delays the bullish

Run but as a – is very important so one very important metric that I encourage people to look at is the daily mining revenue per terre hash per day and over the past few days it kind of dropped below

It's basically at all-time low it's around 7 or 8 cents per terre hash code a historically the lowest point was around 14 1211 stance so by going lower definitely the miners are feeling the crunch we've seen the impact so the hash

Rate that the network has trade is going down over the past week it hit a peak of a hundred and twenty 425 X a hash which was the whole time high last night it was around a hundred so it's around 25% decrease I haven't looked in the last

Few hours but I would expect with that if the Bitcoin price does not improve in the coming days or weeks some more miners will have to turn off yes that's what really wanted to jump in and ask you

Because it does seem that because of all of the incidents that have happened that can cut the convergence or the confluence of many variables we know about Corona now we only saw the bundle with bit max I mean the reality is

Though because of this sudden change it's becoming more expensive for the miners is it your concern at all especially for some of the older technology that they're just running at costs now all running in deficit and

Running in the red and how long do you think this is going to go through until they they start to see a change does it require Bitcoin to go up in value for them to be profitable this is one of the other interesting topics it's very

Common on Twitter as well when the price goes down is my net capitulation so sums at the spiral so some people think that if the Bitcoin price drops suddenly all the miners will have to turn off and then basically no blocks will be mined

Because there's no hashing power it's too hard to find a block so I personally I I don't think that's feasible and this is the reason why it's because as we know the difficulty of mining Bitcoin adjusts every two weeks approximately

Two weeks so how does it work on average one block should be mined every 10 minutes so then when that period ends that two-week period ends looks back to see how many blocks are mined in that period and tries to

Calibrate to find that equally room of ten minutes per block now that Tim that two-week period is you can say a little longer pays all the block chains on the clock chains major the tip of the adjustment daily such as Bitcoin cash

But what that means is sure Bitcoin price dropped by 50% plus unfortunately over the past week hash rates down about 25% so instead of mining the set number of blocks in a two-week period it might take an extra few hours or an extra day

But it still gets there and then for the portal two weeks it's easier to mine so this kind of death spiral it's just not gonna happen yeah but what about those that have the older technology because we know the

Next-gen of the hardware is coming as well Thomas and China's going to lead that out as you know they unfurl some of these next-gen and we'll talk about some of those exist but my my my concern more so is

Those that have got those setups already in place you know what's the impact for those that do have to turn the the kill switch on for a period of time you know is it impactful from your experience when you know the price is just so

Imperative for them to be viable and to be profitable yeah one really good example is to look at the s9 so that's from bit main the s9 is the highest selling machine of all time released from memory in 2016 2017 and from

Reports a few million of them still exist maybe three million or less so I I think most people most miners felt that come having anyway those s liens are probably seeing their end of life okay just like with any kind of electronics

Technologies they come to an end of life actually to go from about twenty sixteen seventeen to twenty twenty that's very solid I would say as three or four years so what can – do the miners who are more prepared would actually have been

Selling these machines say – – in other countries with cheap very very cheap power mm-hmm that's that's one way to deal with it but the having itself and having all gem machines the answer is yes in efficient mining operators may or

Will be wiped out that's unfortunate but that's like any kind of business you know you gotta pick just at least through the hobbing you know what's coming the Bitcoin price drop in the past few days kind of quite a lot of

People off-guard but at least the hiving they're aware of that and if they were running a very sophisticated operation they would already be getting kind of pushed that out right that's a really good point and what is interesting once

Again is it does correlate specifically with that hydro season and that's something I hadn't really considered before talking to you that's going to be a major boon for you for China and for all the mining pools you know linked to

That region now I wanted to just go back a little bit and just talk about the ease of access to mining pools because a lot of people don't know how easy it is you know it's a case of a wallet you know having access to the pro knowing

The process if you want to talk to us about what's involved from sign up right through okay we'll use a Bitcoin as a simplest example so okay let's imagine I have a machine here so I I bought a hardware

And I've set it up here basically I have to connect the internet I choose which mining pool I want to use each mining pool will provide a unique stratum URL so I would enter that onto my machine through an interface

I would also create an account on the pool and put the username in the configuration and then basically that's basically and then you plug it into the wall and it starts running and it's very noisy I'm not sure if you've heard one

Of those for sure okay so the – online assuming you've connected it to the right URL and you've got an account on the pool your miner within moments will start sending shares to the pool basically they're trying to solve that

Equation to find the block now on the pool side you'll be able to see your hash rate which is your computing power and it's really as simple as that you then you've got a you set up a wallet address of course we recommend using a

Ledger or something very secure a harbor wallet is always good but you could set up any well address finance or coinbase whatever you like and then we do daily payouts and if you don't set up an address the funds kind of accumulate in

Your balance but again better they do straight to your your payout address really simple as that yeah and do you do you make it easy also for people to understand the the technology and how it's evolving so say for example they

Want to look at the next-gen tech you know to make sure that they're optimizing their own opportunities do you make it so that there are links and there's information on your web sites 15 understand yeah so we have something F

People don't come / – where we kind of list main stream machines as well as the new ones coming I feel that miners who have been in the industry for a time they like already aware about what's coming because there's only about four

Big manufacturers that exist but you know there's that kind of information gap between say China in the West so that's something myself and our team try to try to help the miners make informed decisions I mean even simple things you

Know we threw out some tweets sometimes comparing different models well you wouldn't like push people to choose a particular machine we don't have any benefit of doing that we want to make

Allow people to make informed decisions mm-hmm makes sense so you do have you know people have the options but with regard to mining itself I mean obviously we know the reasons for that it does secure the network you do we do need

That kind of action to maintain each of the block chains now I want to just touch on a little bit more on the different types so you mentioned a stick you mentioned GPU and CPU now because of the scope and scale of something like

Yourselves as a world a leader in mining calls is that is it fair to say that little guy has really just been pushed out though in many senton in many ways you know when we look at mining for example we're seeing the big players

There so as things like mining pools the only way really yummy in road for participation at this level that's a really really good question firstly as an individual person it's still not that difficult to get a machine and put it in

A hosted data center believe it or not there's actually these kind of data centers in Australia which I was fascinated by because I thought the power prices couldn't be that cheap yeah anyway you could you could I mean if you

Wanted to do in China or the US Canada or wherever you could secondly I mean you've probably heard of cloud mining which I like basically renting machines but you don't earn them for me it's very risky there is some legitimate platforms

But kind of never know when you don't own the asset there's also nice hash which is like a hash rate exchange where you can actually it's like a decentralized peer-to-peer hash rate exchange which is

Really cool it people should check it out but you know what all of these concepts cloud mining nice hash they still use a mining pool you still have to use a money pool at the back to really have a

Chance of any mining revenue yep exactly so really that's the only sort of inroad for them obviously your what the world leader in doing this now let's talk about some of the tech that's coming things like for example correct me if

I'm wrong but is it s-19 pro-war m3 0s I mean I'm like the same that's wrong you can educate me but there's some there's some names coming with regard to the next level of technology so when of these going to sort of roll out you know

Or are they already a great question I'm gonna give a bit of a backstory so hmm so as I said earlier there's four key manufacturers bit main I think everyone's pretty familiar with bit main they were he entity behind Bitcoin cash

Fork back in the day they made the s9 machine which is the highest selling machine of all time then you got what's minor actually the the CEO of what's minor is X bit main he was the one I think that designed the s9 machine then

You got Canal who recently I peered in in Nasdaq I they've been around since 2013 as well for memory and inner silicone so last year was a real battle between bit main and what's minor bit main had the s 17 works my @m 20s and

Then this year it was around one or two weeks ago they just announced a new James I'm sorry what's minor bit earlier what's minors M 30s which is 88 era in our study I was potato hash start shipping over the next few months it

Main announced there s 19 Pro which is a whopping 110 tera hash which sounds amazing I know be a main was unable to sell a huge quantity of machines last year just because they didn't have enough kind of

Supply of the chips whereas once when I sold a lot so that's a big right now like show on paper bit mains machine looks more powerful and more efficient but what I actually had to get one and what would they be priced at so that's a

Big uncertainty though we're just gonna wait and see what plays out what do you think's gonna play out though I mean you're you know this base may you know so what was the reputation obviously is there for both of them

And we know exactly how jihun will works with BMO he is just on the pulse when it comes to being competitive and he doesn't might like to lose so what are your thoughts on this in the future do they want to come up and try and assume

That number one spot that they don't necessarily have now so you're right bit main they're there they're a monster there I say that in a way like a powerful right that being around jihun is ruthless

I mean I'm not sure how much coverage coverage is got outside of mining circles but there was this kind of trouble between Jihan and the other co-founder pit main in late last year right that definitely like has impacts

Of the company right because it's uncertainty for employees and so forth on the other hand I see what's minor as an organization's is pretty like stable and they're not loud they just do it and try and release something if okay if I

Was really looking at it I mean the recent week is really throwing a spanner in the works right right I would expect what's minor we'll start shipping machines the city sent us some samples already but maybe in April and May I was

Chatting with them earlier and there's a lead time of two months so if you want to order today and get the machine now with the having is a lot of uncertainty if they're if if a minor with a good price of electricity and now in this

Current market can negotiate a good price with a hardware it could make a lot of sense I actually myself have a few machines from each of those four brands just for fun and make a little bit of money right I I found what's mine

Emissions very stable like just really reliable yeah like I said I haven't had a single issue with any of them I have around 10 to 15 of them and they were running really well whereas some of the other brands have to change the hash

Board or the PSU the power supply relatively regularly so I was happy with what's mine got and obviously the prices of need to be competitive as well what is interesting to from listening to you is that many of these parties are very

Cognizant of all the factors coming through mid year and preparing it sounds like by making sure they do roll effectively for all the parties that are wanting them now in advance so lots of things seem to be lining in favor of the

Having that's coming especially considering that there's almost a necessity built-in for Bitcoin to improve its value because you know that's its that's its oxygen you know for the future now one of the things

That stifled that though Thomas is the corona virus and we alluded to that before in the conversation how's that impacted not only the morning call of f2 pool but also just more generally the more macro assessment of crypto of you

Know the the productivity there you know given that this little mining activity there now what's the same – a picture okay so so I'm in Asia right now I think from what I'm seeing on the news in Europe and the states it's very sad to

See what everyone is dealing with now is kind of what China dealt with and end up generally Feb I'm happy to say things in China referred groups a lot if to pool and many other companies they've been working from home since Chinese New Year

Which was the end of Jan we will actually asked our team we'll start work in the office this week it actually impacted the supply chain so so shipments of machine say early fable to late one or two weeks

Because of the virus you know silicon is based in Wuhan unfortunately so they're probably gonna be hit harder than most so in general things in China are looking up which is a positive sign I mean of course the Chinese government

Work very strong measures rather it's hard to say early or not early but they took strong measures okay hopefully other governments can follow suit and really lock it down I would say from a global from a Bitcoin

Sense it kind of flows through so the virus to the global economy to the stocks people having not much liquid funds kind of pulling out of more slightly risky assets covering themselves so it definitely flows

Through I think people were surprised that bitcoin is still quite correlated with stocks it's hard to say I'm surprised and I'm surprised it's still early days it doesn't make me feel disillusioned at all I'm still a very

Strong believer in Bitcoin I mean there's other factors at play right I mean the derivatives market for Bitcoin exchanges you know I think that definitely compounded that kind of drop last week down to 3.6 3.8 K I think the

World as a whole just needs to have more unity and take the right measures I don't know how long this virus will last for but I'm sure coming out of this Bitcoin will be stronger because I think this is kind of exposed

Maybe the global financial markets I mean I haven't looked in detail but about the the Federal Reserve saying 0% kind of rehab backing and all this kind of stuff anything more yeah yeah you touched on so many good

Points there I mean one of the arguments put forth and I think quite reasonably is that it's too early really to you know play or use the uncorrelated non-correlated versus correlated argument simply because when we see

Crises like this or a crisis of this scale everything goes out the window all you have is situations like Trump coming out and saying things like we'll provide unlimited liquidity we're going to bail out you know those parties at

The top so it becomes you know the helicopter money we see all of that play out but what is interesting is that there are already reasonable suggestions Kant's said there's many times is that perhaps we're going to see more and more

Proof as time goes on of that non correlation which is very likely because we're going to probably see that with gold as well so perhaps you know crises are a great means of evaluating whether or not something has its own asset value

And like you said it's very likely that bitcoin is going to stand alone as an asset class as that Wiscasset now if we go back to Corona for a moment though the pronoun virus in China what I want to understand many of

Us around the world still don't know what is the current situation there with regard to the pandemic status because many countries haven't even you know experienced what China's been through certainly in my country we haven't yet

Experienced sort of the that they met the magnitude of this that when the wave really has hit right through yeah so back in an end of Jan early Feb you people just had to get used to the fact they have to just stay at home so my

Friends and my so I'm actually not in China right now just by chance but my friends are my colleagues they've been literally at home for weeks okay now things are starting to open up the cases you kind of is that curve

Right and the cases are less and less every day now the biggest concern is people from overseas coming back to China and bringing the virus back and so actually Beijing announced I I'm not sure it's announced or rumor that anyone

From overseas will be quarantine for two weeks okay I had friends come back one of them has been like in this kind of shitty hotel for a week and I knew they're taking it very seriously

I I've seen the pictures from the Beijing Airport are the airport's of like absolutely packed like if you imagine three five weeks ago no one was taking flights now it's like everyone's coming back like Chinese and some non

Chinese so hopefully doesn't start a second wave that would be very unfortunate but yeah as you can see China's very strong wishes like anyone that goes back so that's if I go back now I would yeah I have to stay in a

Hotel for two weeks and say and that's a proactive measure because a 14-day incubation period is real but I wanted to understand from your knowledge of China and obviously having all the connections family friends there and

Obviously being based at the most part it has much of the sort of tray the economy like just the buzz of the space has it returned back to somewhat of some some semblance of normality and our people returning back into work yet or

Are we still too early for that it's like starting now that's what I would say so right come like mmm some of the factories started to open up over the past few weeks definitely not at full production and the more of those kind of

Office companies startups and so forth a lot of them are still working from home but as I said F to Paul and some other companies this week now working from the office I say so just a surprise you when you see a lot of the news that comes

From the West because just for an example and this wasn't fake news someone had no respect he's the CEO of Celsius Network no plug intended but he did an interesting tweet today it was where he was showing that you know

Downtown in Manhattan or in New York it was just completely dead down the streets in the middle of the day so a lot of people very fearful of this when it now that it has arrived it's quite serious but does sound like things move

Very fast with this virus and then if they get a hold of it very quickly you know life goes on within months you know things start to really improve quite rapidly if the responses is fast that's what I'm hoping I think yeah there's

Make countries have different approaches definitely the ones that kind of didn't really make have those proactive measures early was say Iran Italy and some of these other European countries I'm not really sure to judge the US as

Response as slow faster in the middle mm-hmm yeah I just I just hope now people really take it seriously I mean III don't think the mortality rate is that high but those people may be older people or those with other conditions

May be at most risk so even even things that probably non-trained on asian people wouldn't normally do such as wearing a mask I mean when you go outside even if you're not sick I think just do it you know maybe maybe you feel

That it doesn't do anything but that doesn't hurt right he raised a great point in obviously education people being informed is honestly the key even for all of our souls is being in an Ireland just

And we shouldn't be informed to know what's coming because you know we're never us are immune to the presence of this virus but what is interesting you mentioned a really important point and not enough people perhaps look at the

Recovery rates you know they tend to focus on the reports of death so hopefully in time we'll see more of those positive reports we certainly weren't sure about China that's why I asked so I would doubt what is true what

Isn't out of out of China when it comes to media but it does sound like there is you know a return back to the bustle that wasn't a business no no no my one thing is I wanted to talk to you a bit more about is moving across to BTC

Happenings that the Harding specifically just in terms of what your views are for optimization of I guess the network itself in terms of price estimates what is the optimum price do you think it needs to be at the point of happening

For miners more generally that's a really really interesting and and deep question because well I'll walk through what are the key metrics so you have a machine and it has a hash rate computing power and a power consumption from those

Two numbers you calculate the efficiency measured in watts per terra hash so obviously the lower is better those s names we talk about is around 100 watts per Tara hash the m 20s is 48 was for Tara hash and he has 17 around 38 the

United from memory or 40 so it really depends on your power price as well we sometimes send out charts and you also see from our website what is that break even turn off price I can't remember exact numbers from from my head but I

Could say that there's all gems like there's s nines which may make up thirty to forty five percent of the whole network right now that's around $8,000 between price at five cents standard price electricity to break-even stage

Right okay now there's a lot of people out there that love it a lot of percentage for Chuck a big chunk that really wanted to be okay then that's before Harvey so it's tough right so that's probably the majority of the

Machines have seen turn off lane in the last week that 25 send hash rate it's all gem machines probably from bit Maine some from wants – I'm from can answer marina silicon now as we said having is happening so then

You just essentially double that number and you kind of have a rough ballpark figure so for those machines to run a five senses power 16 K but what's actually gonna happen is people have already been and will continue to find

Cheaper source of power rather than that five cent level you know maybe you send it to the Middle East or South America based on where you are you you you find a farm to partner with they don't charge you for electricity and then you kind of

Share your profit share on the profits of the mining that's what people do in general I mean it's definitely many different business models overall mmm but I would recommend those two those metrics to look at which is mining

Profitability per day per Terra hash as well as that turnoff price from this you can work out like who's profitable and who's not so that as a final summary the most important metric for any minor is the cost of production which is the cost

To generate one Bitcoin low II got the better right and clearly you know given a significant percentage of those who are going to currently in the red you know there's a strong incentive for all parties involved to really want to see

Increase in the value of this asset you know that's really trying to change the game when it comes to you know being a digital asset that is you know Peter Pierre that is 24/7 and then we also like some derivative trading that's

Really challenging things now on that note I want to talk to you about the recent bumble I'm very vocal about it I have my own views on it but I'd love to know what you think about what happened with bit Mets we saw the situation where

You know there was a bit of chewing and prying from different exchanges from FTX we saw very strong sentiment from Sam and then a response back from bit mix but there's no question that there was a bot involved there was an attack and it

Certainly led to a significant cascading event where we saw the price of BTC really really collapse you know in this very serious situation so what are your thoughts on those kinds of centralized issues that can

Really damaged the confidence and integrity of everything that we all are trying to build I think it just shows that bitcoin is still in the early days and these kind of products also there's a market for it it can cause a lot of

Damage I haven't looked into the BMX situation deeply I did see Sam straight on Twitter and from what I remember it means it makes his responses about increasing transparency of like the Insurance Fund and everything right that

The direction we need to go in I don't know the detail of what exactly happened then I would say there's still some companies you know from 2016-2017 that operated in a way that is not mmm not sophisticated enough so transparency is

Important making sure there's not too much risk on the overall market but then apart from like these derivative products just exchanges in general centralized kind of financial products I mean as a number of them that were

Lending through – actually in China there's a few large ones and as you could imagine a lot of people got liquidated and there's a cascading effect and then I just thought of another thing just defy so defy there

Was a lot of liquidations makers going through some interesting challenges from what I saw earlier they're looking to add US DC as yes because the deficits now remember a couple of million now meaning that guy's

A quite a serious situation they rallied together which was great to see again a decentralized situation but never a scenario that you want to see play out there was just too much pressure in that instance okay like that I have a

Personal story so I am there is actually a decentralized platform called atomic loans they are doing like atomic swaps with Bitcoin so basically and it's kind of targeted for – right now where I could post my Bitcoin and think it's

Some stable claiming as a loan or what now I have a small amount of Bitcoin there from a few weeks ago and my liquidation price when I said the line was 5.8 K I remember last week I saw the P

Compressor 6 point 4 K I'm thinking you know what maybe I should pay back some of the loan and within 2 minutes it went from 6.4 to like 5.8 K and I'm like holy shit I'm at a big risk right now combine that with the fact that the U theorem

Network was very closed you probably remember that last week so just hard getting dying to pay back part of it luckily I escaped so I pay back right now my liquidation precious 3.8 K but I think it's just a wake-up call for

Everyone that these kind of Black Swan events can happen and you have to be prepared but even for me as an individual as a small-time player right I don't want to lose like a couple big Quinn Brian oh well you know if we

Extend this not to sort of create some sort of overarching fee or you know universal fear but one of the responses from bit max this is not from any other party and they said that they did have a major technical failure though are they

Are their own words and they stated that they were working through compensating some of the parties you know from the last the last SWAT or you know with regard to what happened there's some questions as you mentioned of insurance

But the bigger question more so is what is the impact of this when we know it was so substantial we're talking billions of dollars you know in liquidations but more to the point as Mike know River Novogratz was saying

Today confidence itself is an asset when it comes to something like this space the damage has been done you know when it when it comes to the more the more transient you know issue and when we see that coupled also with coronavirus I

Mean it's the last thing that anyone in crypto wants to see is that there's the cop ability you know from the from the team even if it is a technical issue it is you know something that they'd have to address and redress so is it

Something that we should be taking even more seriously knowing that these things these technical problems can actually cause you know these cascading events these serious outcomes where billions of dollars have been lost and liquidated

Because I think that you know once again we maybe don't talk about this so openly enough you know in fear that it's going to you know effect you know the prosperity Bitcoin if we don't there may be at risk not

Understanding that the centralized parties can have these problems again so I think it's a responsibility of both the platforms and the individuals I really hope let's say a bit max they do really look into it and and really

Increase the transparency and identify what was the problem communicated to the community I'm also individuals as a miner as a Hadassah as an investor don't over leverage yourself you know you got to

Manage your risks and because no one wants to see this happen I mean well I don't know what would have happened if the big claim if it makes didn't go offline and the Bitcoin price said it went further to $1,000 or less that's

The big question I would have you know you're right people lose confidence it's really do you think Thomas people have lost confidence do you think that the outcome of this is that a lot of people will never come back from the circle's I

Speak in the answer is no I don't think it really damages the confidence I think it's just a minor setback on all of our journeys but you know I'm not talking as much to that kind of casual everyday hot Ola I made actually what do you think

Have you been have you been chatting – well I actually agree with you I think that what's happened from my own and macro assessment is that derivatives are now you know the hot conversation and for that reason you know there's much

More sort of momentum in that direction and there's much more acceptance of volatility you know in its own right so like you said you know you're responsive if it went down to 500 bucks you'd buy it I think that's the common consensus

Right across the board is the volatility is the norm and so it's interesting when you see the traditional markets react in the kind of fad that we see there literally when things move 10% everyone's like 10 percent are you

Joking you know so I think there's that plasticity for the youth you know that are engaging in crypto I don't think that we would regard this is trivial though not at all and that's why I'm asking you with regard to the technical

Sort of risks inherent in decentralized parties because derivatives are now having such a major role in crypto today just on the volatility point I think it would be very interesting to analyze volatility over time against kind of the

The inflation of Bitcoin sort of block rewards so with the having those the supply will be decreased to six point two five and then in a few more years three point three or five and so forth I imagine will get to a point where those

Block rewards are smaller and smaller and the miners themselves we won't see that kind of exponential expansion of mining farms and so forth so rather than seeing this huge volatility on the Bitcoin price and also that daily mining

Revenue it's gonna get tighter and tighter I think that's what we're gonna see but as you said these derivative products can a systemic risk to soar to big clean and some yes yeah yeah and I had a look at the volatility index as

Well and I'll put a link down below if those who want to have a look at it you are right there was a lot of flux recently though and as you alluded to the addition of derivatives is now another you know layer of complexity

Let's say what are your thoughts on that in terms of you know the reality that this is still a nice and space as a spot market we're still trying to establish this in a service as an asset itself do you think that you know that now that

The genies out of the bottle with derivatives is it a good thing that it moved so quickly what are your thoughts on that well it's hard to say it's good or not I would say the other interesting thing for the mining world is that a lot

Of organizations are looking to make hash rate derivatives okay so it's just to get a bit of background as a miner I could it was this three main inputs we will say Bitcoin price the network hash rate or difficulty and then your

Electricity price okay so your electricity price is somewhat more stable than the other to become prices volatile but you can buy derivatives you can buy futures options to minimize your risk and then that Network hash rate one

There's not really a sophisticated way to to to short along that so there's a few companies kind of building that now some of them are platforms some of them are brokers I think that's a good thing because it

Allows minors to be able to head to their risk more going back to the Bitcoin derivatives well yeah the kind of the genies out of the bottle you know it as we said these platforms may be more transparent more responsible but if

They were to take away some products someone else will come in with them and make them because the demand for it now and I think I think there's this with the mining world and the knowledge gap between the East and the West this whole

I kind of crypto finance will trading hedging borrowing lending between east and west like you probably have not much idea who are these big platforms in China right and the amount of money that's going through honestly right now

I know the platforms but I don't know the details of how much money is going through but it's very possible it's huge sums of money and and maybe not in a very responsible way so yeah that's the just estate idea I think you raise a

Good point I mean a lot of people you know start trying to grapple with the gravity of trifa tubes you mean now that they are certainly affecting markets where tributes are now openly traded we saw the likes of question marks come up

Early on when some of the less the less liquid startups with their token so to be traded in in that realm when it was very questionable because there just wasn't enough liquidity now let's talk about some of the tokens that you do you

Have on your platform that don't necessarily you know perhaps have the big names in terms of the brand they certainly don't have the big liquidity like BTC for example but they're growing I've been watching so nervous for

Example that's that's one and then there's others but you have a whole suite of them actually but because they're prw because people are essentially mining them how's everything going for that sort of sort of end of

The continuum you know those lower caps that are really trying to push forward yes so powa jex kind of have a life cycle just like Bitcoin start at CPU GPU ASIC so let's

Few examples let me think of the projects from the start of 2019 and so now that a kind of well-respected or well-known so there's the nervous there's green there's beam there's one Queens hello we're going to launch this

Week and hygienists handshake which is a very interesting project so yes all of these coins I've just mentioned they start with GPU mining okay that means people with a graphics card maybe they might in theory a more etc' then they

Can decide you know it maybe it's no problem of my this so maybe is just interesting Friday I wonder mine it then when the network starts pick up traction people start to build those more specialized machines now I actually

Didn't mention earlier there is one other type of minor called an FPGA so I'm gonna explain GPU FPGA and ASIC okay can mine a lot of different mining algorithms so with a with a graphics card from the video AMD maybe this on it

Super cool maybe 10 to 30 different kinds you can mine right now you've got an ASIC which is the other end of the spectrum it only mines one algorithm ok so maybe it's it's it's just my knee – so very classic and so forth then you've

Got FPGA in the middle it can kind of mine a couple different algorithms and just the computing power is much higher than a graphics card so generally what we've seen on launch is that the project teams kind of work with mining farms to

Kind of get an amount of hash rate committed we almost called it like what's the word like defense minding because you know as an early days as a project you could be susceptible to a 51% attack which is probably the worst

Thing I can throw a load of your project so they'll work with some writing farms get these like GPU mining farms to support them and mine it everything goes smoothly as the hash rate grows over time the price may or may not go up over

Time and then people look at doing FPGA miners or ASIC – but to do these to make these is a lot of capital required a seriously huge investment to the network right yeah if someone decides to make an FPGA or an ASIC miner it's it's a

Positive sign that people believe in the network so for example handshake nervous recently had these machines announced in the past few weeks they'll start launching the coming week right even teller TRB I've seen there is a company

Called Malta miner also in China that I'm making an FPGA that combines ckb handshake aunt Ella okay now I just want to say very clearly everyone it doesn't mean just buy one because yeah today what many of you may be good today but

If everyone's minding with a GPU today and then these super powerful machines come online just destroy the profitability you gotta consider that secondly shipping time but everyone do their research very interesting though

Yeah I want to talk more about that so we've read it really understand so because I looked at the listings of the pows rankings that you did yeah you outline it's very clear and taught number 12 and number 13 come up with

Handshake and then we've nervous and I found that interesting because they're not necessarily you know the most known startups but they have a lot of respect in this space especially something like nervous handshakes really starting to

Come up now as you know and then obviously I'm a huge supporter Atilla everyone knows that I shield that all the time because not only did I invest in that but I genuinely believe in that use case for as a defy Oracle the way

They've approached this for security first but in saying that can we talk a bit more about from your experience what is the impact you know empirically when something like nervous or when something like handshake starts to really engage

With something or like you guys what tends to be the process that lays out what actually does tend to happen from you know go to work okay it's kind of interesting because it's a little bit similar to exchanges and how all of that

Works so let's say nervous it was a project that we were aware of before the maintenanced we actually did some events with them to raise awareness and help them out basically from the f2 perspective we want to analyze different

Projects to see if it's worth supporting and actually the ones we just mentioned are Queens we support it on day one of maintenance or shortly after okay what you'd normally see is it's like there is a community a community of

Spec – speculative – it's very interesting they're trolling Bitcoin talk 4chan reddit trying to find these interesting currencies that mine with a GPU the mind with nice hash and and then wait for the time and these logic

Company start to pick it up whether it's a mining for whether it's an exchange so so we haven't actually launched celli yet we're kind of going through the final steps with setting up the pool talking with the team so I've spent a

Quite a bit of time talking with Brenda and Mike and Nick from the team just to understand their vision I mean even the atomic learn sky so I mentioned the defy it be having discussions about using that articles for their kind of defy

Product wrong so with very exciting actually just to even be like a small small small part of these projects but basically okay we find a pretty that's interesting we do the analysis we look at the revenue the profitability we

Think it's cool we launch our service we considered we just do our servers in China to be this way in North America Europe wherever else and once we kind of wanted to build a relationship with a team as well as the community and all we

Want to do is just raise the awareness and of course if we attract more miners and it's good for us it's good for you and good for them now from your experience what's it being like you know when you know through all of the

Different Prasad upset and the coins that have listed you know is it a real mixed bag you know no pun intended when it comes to the success of these tokens because obviously as I mentioned back to tell her you know that's coming for you

In the sense that you're engaging it's going to be launched very soon hmm from your experience has it for the most part being positive for those startups you know in terms of not just price appreciation and obviously you know

Getting their name out there but just having that support from the industry at the variable you know fundamental level of mine and getting more about getting more of that that that mining engine firing in a decentralized way yeah so I

Think the projects we've mentioned they're all legitimate reputable interesting projects I mean I think back there's actually a lot of new POWs created all the time also Forks I remember like 2017-2018 a lot of these

Forks will pop up I have a dev team that will work for a few months and yeah the tranquille in exchanges try raise awareness but it just doesn't get going so we also has a pool we don't want to just list a claim that's gonna be around

From month it's not a good look and it's not really supporting those projects they need the support and will use it and for something valuable for the community so we definitely have a tight listing process now I will say the yeah

That's that's how we will really look at new coins it's interesting and also obviously looked at the economic sort of approach the teletype for example again not to shell it but I am obviously shelling it you know by you know by

Circumstance but when I looked at it I really took I noticed just how much time they've spent redressing some of the economics of it as well so that it was more in there was incentivization for the miners built-in you know they done

Their own model where they'd reduce the block rewards they made sure that they address the inflation so that would that only just kicked in they do look deeply at that kind of stuff you talk with the team about the changes they've made so

That again it aligns with your your needs to have a point that makes sense exactly and let me just share a little bit about the interesting aspects of telling mining so one thing is that miners have to put forward

It gives 1000 TRB from memory yep so actually as the pool integral we are putting that forward okay and then the miners themselves don't need to do it okay so the reason that stake exists is to prevent malicious actions by miners

Against the network right so always putting that forward tell her right now is mine using GPU as I mentioned this an FPGA in the works were but yes we have an open dialogue with the team

As a company of soup all this year we want to do more with each of these POWs X I would say up until now we've done a decent job you know with engage with communities engage with teams but you want to really take that to the next

Level and that's NT TLP is one we were looking at right now right and it's interesting too because we were discussing this pre-interview you're pretty connected as well Thomas because you have to be you know in your role

Because you do represent the entire 2f2 pool and you know world leader for what you do so in you know your support for these not only is it because of you know there's an aligned interest for the economics and for the actual the asset

But do you also support them in much like for example finance – or all coinbase – or any of the parties that have their own you know I guess allies in space do you really help connect them to help build the narrative for them

Because once again a narrative and confidence come part and parcel with the success of the tech and the tiger yeah so I think one one thing about I like about the crypto Bitcoin community in general is that people are very willing

To help each other out mm-hmm I mean that's just like a very positive thing you're right being in China actually with the TI B team we might do an AMA for a Chinese community I think the Chinese miners are

Not too familiar with TI b yet but they're starting to we really do a mas we've done about three or four because of the coronavirus we've done three or four like online events in the past few weeks we did one with e TC leading up to

The having so there's been times where a project team has spoken to us being like okay do you know would there be a mining farm that would be happy to help us support the network in those early days providing hash rates or maybe a verdict

Or sources do you know any manufacturers that might be interested into doing an ASIC for our front Queen that's like new I mean or do you know a team that could use an Oracle you know those signaling right so actually um yeah exactly right

Yeah yeah well it's exciting to say because you know your seems to be that you are very focused on looking for the bed that you can find you know there's a lot of people suggesting that you know once

You have one technology emerged like before seen for example chain-link you know very prominent very much respected name in this space you know is it your position that there's room you know for more when it comes to multiple Oracle's

For example or just the fact that you can have multiple platform of multiple pows as you know you've got a lot of them myself personally I'm more of a fan of proof of work or proof of stake right I was actually gonna ask you what do you

Because I think you've spent a lot of time really understanding it deeply yeah what what do you see and I'm genuinely curious right now what do you see as the main value proposition that TRB provides in comparison to chain-link for example

To because I come at that good question and I don't want to disrespect anyone who is a supporter of chain-link I even own chain-link believe it or not but for me personally what I can honestly tell you is that I am very much a proponent

Of decentralization and more importantly trust lessness so what I'm looking for again I would say this even if I didn't own TRB that's important I really love that it aligns with the interests of for example aetherium core value from the

Outset even between for example in that when it comes to security to me that's the most important thing so with Oracle's obviously you do want to have a very fast and expedient Oracle that's a necessity you know some would argue but

Even more than that the proof of work especially a hybridized one it the first and foremost you know component of that is a security so that it can operate and it can build its you know other aspects of the trilemma so that is the big

Difference honestly is that with teller they spent two years you know in the background trying to forge and create something that was an Oracle that eventually could have real use case you know from the security it out if that

Makes sense now if you don't do that you have to ask yourself what do you actually have you know you know is it going to be a create a situation where there's risks for you know the price rate or risks for the

My contract later so again there's trade-offs but that's the truth of why I'm really looking to tell her and why I took it seriously and obviously they're a small team you know and I know that but there's always going to be things

That people will vie for a playoff on each other but I've always said in the Oracle domain I think that's a dangerous game because everyone is truly trying to find their niche their market fit and chain-linked have approached this and I

Have to say this honestly there is really no team in crypto earth that's done a better job of marketing there really isn't you know chain-link had just been injected steroids into their mouths

Marketing team have really led that narrative very well so you know kudos to them but when it comes back to the old you know the tech story from me it's got to be security first and you know what do you think because I'm a big fan of P

O W or than I ever thought I'd be you know who I should recommend if you're interested is to talk to the guys from atomic Lawrence because firstly they're building DFA on Bitcoin in a decentralized way and using atomic swaps

And they themselves are considering – maybe I shouldn't say this from the car sorry – me next time we'll catch up will we let a conversation about that as well sorry that is interesting okay you know because right yeah and you know to be

Honest with you as well Thomas you know months ago I may not have been as such a fan of here w as I am now but it's only because I really don't understand the imperative of security if you don't have the bedrock built out then it's very

Difficult to then and let's talk about that in the context of defy I love defy everyone knows I'm a major supporter of that innovation but what if the bedrock isn't sort of verified is it even is it if it isn't proven with that strong

Probability of proof of work then it doesn't mean a POS can't work or something beyond that but the question will always arise is that Mura means of just setting a side of steak you know for trying to build the ecosystem or is

It built into the integrity of the technology there's a big difference there so that's why I'm really sorry about potential of POS and beyond but I don't discount anymore the value of here WI just there's no way there's a

Few things I just want to throw in so as most people watching are probably aware ëthere iam is transitioning from peww POS taking a long time that's a direction e theorems taking secondly the Nerium community a very hot topic

Recently is called Prague POWs ravaged into the mining algorithm of deuterium so that Asics cannot mine etherium so that's a another very interesting Toby probably for another day but basically debate yeah basically some members of

The community feel that a cigs aid centralization which is bad for the network and then some argue that Asics are good for the network that's just another topic and often there's different camps you know there's miners

That tend to be proponents of one of those units and then as you know then there's the the true sort of I guess the libertarians or those that want to make sure that the true p2p nature of this can blossom and and and build from the

People from PW so it's going to be interesting to see what plays out and that adds to another layer of complexity actually you know a lot of people have a big question mark about the evolution of aetherium and I have to tell you again

I've invested in the theorem because I just really respect the innovation the endeavor it doesn't mean that I'm right and it doesn't mean that we you know someone you know should solely and wholly just stick with something true

And tested but again I don't discount the value of something that is if that makes sense for sure and a lot of people ask me do – actually care about these kind of debates okay another good example is a Bitcoin cash I'm not sure

If if many people have seen this but a few weeks ago someone proposed kind of like a dev text embedded into the Bitcoin cash protocol now this was met with a lot of negativity like there's two camps right now so what do the

Miners actually feel actually there is definitely a subset of miners more than just wanting to make money care about the health of these networks but for the miners that I want to just focus as a business which i think is

Totally reasonable they prefer things done smoothly they don't want to see chain splits and these kind of thing so I think with these kind of discussions you've got the developers you've got the miners and then you've

Got the token holders so it's a very very interesting dynamic I have to say absolutely and then on top of all of that as well Thomas we have one extra layer of interest and that's the institutional we kind of hear narratives

That aren't yet proven with the amount of Institute institutional investment today we don't really know those numbers but we do hear the likes the things like but but well backed what what is exciting is that we're starting to see

Legit startups like for example Starbucks trying to really vocalize really starting to you know especially now with krenov iris is saying look you know maybe we need to put more explicitly options on the table and then

We see the likes of Azur and Microsoft being involved the see also things like baseline protocol coming enterprise potentially coming and then we've seen the likes of alliances even you know going back to the Oracles chain-linked

You know right there's a lot happening in this space I execu another one so what I what I think is interesting also is we're starting to see more a greater evidence of legitimacy of crypto do you see that as well happening

Definitely the progress is slow but definitely positive direction and I think that for people who enter the space and I don't mean just actually kind of buying queens or investing the vast majority who get into the space are

Impressed by not only the technology but also the community and the belief that we are building something that is improving the world and will improve a lot for many people I have to say I'm very very mining focused these days I

Can share that over even the last 6 to 12 months even the last 3 to 6 months more kind of insta shoosh ins I looking to get into mining because they see mining as the backbone of the infrastructure of these watching

Them or tell tell us more you know that is interesting because we don't hear enough of that side of it and I don't want to miss this chance so if they're looking at the big money and the money's in the security of the P o W the

Probabilities there how you know what are the conversations you're having you know who are these parties what's actually going on ok so there's actually a company in Australia I was quite excited when I found this their name is

Iris energy they have been setting up data centers in Canada and there's plenty of safe family offices or just these large organizations such as SBI that want to get into crypto so what are the conversations basically mmm they

Have limited background okay so they definitely rely on working with people in the mining you understand it they see it as a infrastructure play they see it as setting up data centers the idea is to to mine Bitcoin or

Etherium of these cryptocurrencies and the idea is to get the costs of production as low as possible the advantage of say if you're in mining or GPU mining is that you can actually use your data center to do other things

To be AI could be for video rendering and this kind of stuff so it's not just only mining Bitcoin but basically it's they they don't have much background knowledge so it's really working through them to really educate them I say but

It's so great to know that they are looking at the mining aspects I certainly haven't had that conversation with anyone before to hear ality fidelity has a mining division now and they are they getting into it so mmm

Well there's clearly there's your profitability as well and many parties especially institutions will follow the money trail so everything seems to be from what we've discussed today there's everything seems we you know on a good

Trajectory upward we can never know exactly what's going to happen but a lot of people are looking at all of the different events that have happened and arguing that either way they're close to a bottom or we have bottoms so fingers

Crossed with all the things that are happening thomas with the hydro the alignment is having the all the other things that are going on in the back end that you're doing the alliance with you know institutions as

Well and also on top of that just the fact that mining is popular we're in right across what it looks things are looking good it seems yeah the past week I mean the whole world is in turmoil we can say hopefully from

That level things start to improve and yeah for Bitcoin I think some people were kind of shocked about being very correlated with stock market not having a safe haven from me it's just a small bump on the journey the the value

Proposition of Bitcoin has not changed and yeah let's just keep moving forward it's exciting times it certainly is mate so thanks for letting us know about that hot news would tell her that that's obviously

Good to know it's great to know also that others you know like handbrake I am watching that one actually nervous of being I've interviewed them before so there's a lot happening for you once again if people want to know more I'll

Put as many links as I can below to access information about f2 cool but Thomas thank you for being that representative and letting the community know as you do all the updates all the information because we just simply can't

Get enough understanding what mining is about what mining pools do and just how integral they are to the future of crypto so thanks mate on behalf of all the people for your time tonight Thank You Brad it was a lot of fun hopefully

We can do this one more time again and yeah if anyone if you have questions Brad or anything for us questions hit me up on Twitter and definitely love to engage in conversation lockwise might anger the Aussies it's great the

Representative and we really catch on again yeah yeah and we'll catch up again soon thanks again your time mate and I will hit you out see you mate okay see you later

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