Datadash | Nicholas Merten | BlockchainBrad | Crypto Interview | BTC Bitcoin Chat

by birtanpublished on September 19, 2020

hello it's Brad Laurie or blockchain Brad and today once again I have a very special interview & Conquer conversation with Nicolas Merton many of you know him as dalla – he's one of the most recognized and respected public speakers

When it comes to cryptocurrency when it comes to blockchain and when it comes to crypto more generally Nick thank you very much for being here just to have a crypto chat and an update as we move into you know this very interesting era

Of blockchain technology what it can do Brad it's a pleasure to be here as always and then we'll have a lot of interesting stuff to discuss absolutely now for those of you wondering the main focus of this conversation today is all

About BTC it's all about bitcoins and it's all about exploring the form and function at functionalities that BTC does present the idea is to have a conversation to look at different angles look at different perspectives and just

Share our understanding particularly when it comes to Nick because obviously not only is an advocate for Bitcoin but it's certainly an advocate for really trying to change the socio-economic status quo allowing this technology to

Be something more than just simply an asset to huddle but something of real use both now in the future so Nick it's going to be interesting today I want to dig deep straightaway and get into a tough topic and that is utility a lot of

People talk about it a lot of be able to use it as the term for the token itself whether that be a start-up whether that be BTC so let's let's unpack that term and try and understand what it means in the context of BTC first what does

Utility mean to you when we talk about Bitcoin yeah utility to me it's a very complex and kind of philosophical thing when we talk about Bitcoin you know I was someone for example who really got captivated by the Bitcoin white paper

From the days of peer-to-peer digital currency and I really would love to see some kind of world where we have currencies for example that are separate from nation-states the vision has been a little bit harder to really grasp and

Really see over time and I think there's a good mixture from both sides and the kind of views of what bit Clint has become for those who are more on the side of store value a lot of it makes sense to me a big one has deflationary

Properties the finite supply 21 million not to mention as well with the network not being able to scale as much as we would hope for it to at the moment it seems as if the only real use case for Bitcoin

Right now that has been proven so far would be to hold it and you know hopefully be able to hedge against global government's or you know do economic downturns thinks that sort of currency depreciation but on the south

Side as well I'm really kind of heartwarming I know this is a little bit outside of Bitcoin but and there's actually a few projects related to Bitcoin and in this movement the dphi movement that's been showcased on

Aetherium that I know you and I have really been showing an interest in over the last few months and I really think that shows to me that there is some potential for Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies alike to serve as

Either providing a gateway for expansion of financial services and really expressing more utility than just storing value but being able to settle immutable transactions it would be such a waste it'd be such a waste if we put

All of this computational power that we do put into Bitcoin and we just simply let it sit there kind of like gold in the vaults I would love to see these networks using the computational resources to settle transactions for all

Types of things and especially be able to transmit value and and in a sense of commerce rather than just hedging value I think it's very important that's the very first important thing and you need to be able to do that whether it be gold

Or cash you need to be able to have some way to relatively store value and then the second goal after that is to exchanges so I think that's what's going through right now I think it's so interesting you say you know you talk

About the development that could continuum from the first you know start point or starting point for BTC when it emerged in 2009 knowing with a clear agenda to be something of a PDP cash system not just from the white paper but

Also from the conversations that were proven through the cyberpunk movement and what they were trying to essentially elicit through a software system that could essentially circumvent some of the top-down authorities whether they the

Enterprise or government driven that was the agenda at the time so I want to talk about that more you raise an interesting point also about how there's essentially two camps emerging one being you know the agenda of the sov potentially moving

To a currencies question mark and also those with utility beyond that when it comes to valorising data transfer information through smart contracts if for example and seeing what that can actually do for the real world

Especially in SME market places especially in mainstream market places where we haven't yet seen the adoption of them and the utility of them so it's interesting how you you explained that but let's move it back again to BTC in

The context of the start because when we talk about utility we're not finished I really want to dig this dig into this deeply now in the beginning the utility was such that it was the premise technologically based on what the form

Is of BTC it's at a technological level the premise of the start was to essentially establish a software that arguably could create some sort of means of global money and we use the word we hear the terms being thrown around now

Sound money but just at a tech level Nick let's explore that for a moment in terms of utility forget about fourth philosophy what was the utility of the beginning and it is it still upheld inform only look at the tech yeah well

The utility of Bitcoin in the early days was the misconception that it was private that it was you know untraceable and it was used on the Silk Road back in you know 2013 I remember very mad at that time yeah and it was it was a very

Fascinating time I mean to me is a very kind of I'm not full-on full-blooded libertarian but I definitely don't my libertarian views and I thought this is really interesting to see like this you know it to me it seems so speculative at

The time and I had a very cynical view of Bitcoin because I didn't believe that there could be some solution to the central banking system that many people like myself were kind of festered over and we were like we wanted to seize up

In the system well Bitcoin was an interesting phenomena at the time and still to this day you know it's interesting you know they even at one use case a Bitcoin to be used for maybe like you know you know

Dark market transactions and things of that sort which some people would say is good or bad the thing is at the end of the day it hasn't proved much else other than I can buy Bitcoin and I can make value with it or it's in the lawn area

Does prove value in is compared to alternative systems of remittance payments if I need to send value across the world there are a lot of people I know for example I met when I was actually out of all

Places I was in Hong Kong and men individuals who lived in Brazil and they ran explore import company and they used Bitcoin to transmit value very quickly across the world and between different exchanges and OTC desks they were able

To actually send and settle money very quickly rather than you know going through traditional payment gateways like Swift so right saying thank you those are some of the use cases for Bitcoin that case you know people

Mentioned remittance markets wire money wiring money across the world that is definitely a very valuable proposition that gold for example can't really provide right which is just on that point though Nick just to interject now

For that to be successful firstly they tend to be quite large transactions or certainly not you know very menial one secondly there's an assumption that Fiat will also be related to that transactional process because that's

Being done in order to get feared in different currencies around the world so I think that a lot of people don't discuss that aspect of the intention behind that kind of businessman you brought up a very good point in that

Use case doesn't really build demand for Bitcoin because a million dollars an input for buying Bitcoin inevitably is gonna be a million Bitcoin sold or a million dollars for the bitcoins sold on the other side exactly same thing like

XRP and that's why I always try to tell people that Bitcoin itself I really don't believe so this is this is something you're mentioning earlier but I know you're talking about utility and I actually really want to drive home

Like my vision for Bitcoin because as much as I thought about this for a very long time as much as I would like it to stick to the vision of the white paper I think what is inevitably gonna happen as Bitcoin is going into involved into

Something we don't know and it's not gonna be as boring as a store value right that's not what this is you know this is a programmable money right you know it is programmable money in the sense that there's going to be a lot

More functionality just being a store valuable doesn't really make it programmable money um what I really see happening is it's going to be a two-step phase bitcoins going through its first phase now that everyone's talking about

Which is a store value recipe and I think that that's a very valuable proposition for a lot of people who do need to hedge wealth whether it be people here in the West or be those who are under oppressive governments you

Know in countries for example I carton Tina which again just saw massive currency depreciation twenty percent overnight you know again there's when when you have currency controls inflicted that's where

Bitcoin can really come in rom but this is just the first phase here the secondary phase that is going to be very important as when utility comes and Bitcoin is going to act as a settlement layer and there's a really cool startup

That I've been following that one of my one of my friends I met in the Netherlands is working at scalded Bank and it's about de B&K and their what they're trying to do is build a settlement layer on top of the Bitcoin

Or basically a financial transaction layer on top of the Bitcoin network that helps to conduct basically what's known as contracts for difference and determine the financial sector that basically it relates to basically

Financial types of debts in this case four people could expose themselves to different types of asset classes with Bitcoin being the underlying value that's being settled in this case the store value in a sense so it would be

It'd be kind of like for example if you and I were doing we were exposing yourself to certain types of assets and we had gold backing the transactions in this case so it's it's a very interesting name it's kind of hard to

Explain but there's a lot of interesting use cases from speculation also just people having their wealth exposed in national currencies different types of financial products all being able to happen on the censorship resistant

Network hmm and what's interesting also is that you're talking about the prospect of other utilities to come forth one of them is the settlement I think though a lot of people perhaps don't discuss enough about what bitcoin

Isn't at this point you know because right now is the majority of people who are participants in this ecosystem are either speculators or those that support or support rather the sov narrative now if we move it back though to the tech

The big question is you know at the moment if we look at just proof of Technology proof of what the form and function of BTC at the software level and at that fundamental and underpinning sort of component aspect do you think

Right now Nick that there's proof that it has the capacity to function as a settlement layer if we look at just the form itself look at the tech itself the mechanics do can we be sure that it even has the capacity given it is the first

Iteration it was the first technology to emerge in this sort of campus tokenized economies for the future and also given that typically history only see these developments emerge the first one doesn't necessarily

Win out in the end yeah well again I won't want to I don't want to put too much confidence to my opinion on this because I'm no developer but in the sense of bitcoins code in the sense of security which i think is the

Biggest priority absolutely Bitcoin has proven high tier security it's probably one of the most secure networks on the world if you pry it's usually any time that there's an error in bitcoins network it's usually human error and the

Sense of fault you know improper private key management you know improper wallet security things of that sort the pic when networks been you know humming soundly with all of the computational power that's going into it

Someone's always mining in the network someone's always confirming transactions and the sense of its capacity well obviously the scalability topic comes up in this case absolutely network is highly scalable Bitcoin it's not

Honestly in this case as much as I personally again I hold that value of Bitcoin I had hoped that Bitcoin would be peer-to-peer cash one day I mean is very true in the sense that you maybe Bitcoin won't become a layer where

You can sell your coffee transactions in this case but the problem here is that if it's too expensive for anyone for example people mention Lightning Network and a lot of secondary layers scaling solutions I think that's gonna play a

Huge role but even if for example you had the whole world using Lightning Network you always have to do a first off you have to do a transaction in this case to create a multi signature dress in this case for a lightning Network now

In this case so in order to to basically onboard funds of the Lightning Network you have to do a settlement layer transaction project right now the fees are still crazy high and the reason why is because we're restricted in one

Megabyte so I think yeah I think that there needs to be much again I'm I'm a developer and I don't have a better solution on my hands in this case so maybe I can't complain but just being realistic and saying as the team like

You know we're all trying to work towards this vision you know right now Bitcoin is is not scalable for the worlds even right lightning Network and I think with called this is setting up the lightning nobody learning all of

That yeah sure a Knicks are interrupted obviously it really raises the question of flexibility rather than having sort of a concrete finite approach to the code itself to the technology because already in this conversation you're

Alluding to the value of being flexible as Bitcoin develops you know as it has done in the past now a good moves back again wants to that once again to the white paper itself and we talked about this pre-interview what

At what point does that document itself become the premise the basis for the whole ecosystem you know a reflection of its robustness and should indeed that document change as we're talking about to reflect the evolution reflect the

Progressional developments that indeed are happening with BTC right now so if I'm correct on this I just want to make sure Brad you're kind of saying how in this case we'd like for example most like altcoins or kind of alternative

Cryptocurrency projects out there you send this you tend to see evolution of the white paper that shares its stated goal in this case it's change over time why would your kind of it should be the same yeah I would say well you know some

People can make an argument that Bitcoin should do that because it does have a group of core developers but the problem I think some people would say is that who really has the right to say you know for example what bitcoin stated

Objective is in this case I mean Satoshi when he wrote that white paper he had a stated goal in that case that's what he believed at the time was what bitcoin could become and you know maybe even Satoshi today might disagree with what

He wrote alright we just don't know because Satoshi's gone so for people to come along and be able to edit the white paper and kind of state the stated goal what bitcoin is I think that would be it would kind of kill off you know what

Bitcoin is about because that's so fascinating you say that because right now we see in the environment Nick that invisibly this is happening anyway you know without the changes to white paper narrative has certainly shifted andreas

Talks about that as well so do we ignore the fact that now social consensus is such among you know those who have been bitcoiners or Bitcoin maximalist you know I certainly have morphed from that original agenda I'll tell you this Brad

I know it seems a lot of the times that the interests are selfish in this space and sometimes people are just finding bin stored-value cases is very easy for most people to get behind it's like hey if I buy something that it's going up

And we just all kind of get on the bandwagon of saying oh it's gonna go up yeah that's it's not very exciting but the thing is is that it doesn't stop there as I mentioned there's there's projects like the bank there's all kinds

Of people who have really added interesting contributions over time to the Bitcoin network and here's the thing you know as we talk about other competing projects its survival of the fittest

If the miners on the Bitcoin network do not either adopt upgrades to the network that allow these interesting second layer solutions or applications to be built on top of Bitcoin security and settlement factor then it's going to

Lose out in the end the miners who are shouldn't be following their economic incentive to expand Bitcoin to be as valuable as possible they will lose out and I think they're the ones who have the biggest amount of value to lose in

This case and so because in this case if I want to go sell my bit quitting this on the market get into another project they have invested tons of money into the mining equipment so I think that they're very slow to make these changes

But the Bitcoin right now already has the framework where people can start building on top of it and adding unique things it's just that it takes time and it doesn't happen overnight especially when you're dealing with transacting

Money or try to build financial services it's much more complex than just snip software it's fascinating we talk about this especially given that there's a plethora of layer 1 solutions or perhaps not so

Solutions but layer 1 startups that are emerging now trying to also look at that no trilemma as we know it you know trying to solve that equation and also trying to scale you know without compromising security as which obviously

BTC is well-known and famous for but Nick if we move move it back to goal add to a utility for a second I wanted to talk about gold because a lot of the time when we look at crypto Twitter for example if we explore or the social

Media narratives we quickly see this statement that BTC is the new digital goal so want to explore what that actually means if there's any veracity in that statement when we start to understand gold itself now if we use the

Utility argument a lot of people would you know they Mock the idea of gold you know having real utility because they say in many crypto circles particularly the Maximus it's just jewelry but I wanted to present an argument or a

Suggestion that it's actually a lot more than that when it comes to gold we have different verticals that have proven utility bases such as things like ecclesiastical support may not be regarded as a mainstream utility but

When it comes to art and culture it's very relevant for use case and we look at things like the conduct the conductivity you know of its form means that it's applied in many different industries right from electronics

Engineering and many other areas as you know manufacturing then we have obviously that predominant aesthetic value from that culturally inbound point of jewelry banking you know something that also trends lights into awards for

You know various different sports including the Olympics so it has that symbol of power and value dentistry medicine aerospace engineer I mean the list goes on for utility and the reason why I make these points is because in

Crypto Twitter it's really understated you know they a lot of it is dismissed because they're saying so Leegin holy it's jewelry the reality is that in history throughout all iteration throughout all

The many eras where gold has been known and been acknowledged as something of value utility has always been part of that conversation as well as currency as well as commodity so at what point do we acknowledge the differences and accept

Them as they are is distinct with gold yeah so I first off I really appreciate you have any kind of a contrarian view in this case because I know a lot of people it can it can kind of be an echo chamber special encrypted Twitter when

You've just got feeds of people you're following all in the same space but I'll say this Brad a lot of the things that you did list out are very they're very important things I think in the significance of universal understanding

That gold has some kind of value I mean it's from the you know from thousands of years ago in this case people appreciated the values and properties of gold because it didn't just look pretty but it also had its you know its

Desirable properties in it but here's the thing I would state the cases that you listed I know a lot of people so it's just used for jewelry it's actually really not used just for jewelry it's used for jewelry and for private

Investment in this case either between things like the central banks and organizations at the IMF or for private investment and if you take a look at jewelry and private investment for gold you actually find that eighty-five to

Ninety percent of all the gold in the world is used for those two purposes so 10% that 10% you mentioned of all this different use cases it might have been more in history that was used for that more responsible yes James absolutely

Absolutely yeah and and that's the thing is in over the last decade I mean it makes sense because gold has become a growing store value it really has been over the last century it's become this like you know kind of like oh you should

Have a little bit of exposure in your portfolio to gold or that gold has become a completely sound and renowned kind of and this is a perfect segue into the discussion now of store of value and currency as well because with gold as

You mentioned the primary use case for gold in the modern era is bullion itself you know is the vault you know the storage of this as an asset seen especially since the d– standardization or the remove the deregulation of all

The do group and know that the fact that paper-money you know really emerged as a significant means of inflation inflation inflationary currency so in this sense Nick you know given that the the top-down sectors of enterprise and

Government seriously back the boolean approach the sov approach is that another difference as well to Bitcoin in that it has a global backing from all sectors and it's also been had to start initially in the commodity currency and

Utility born in history that's come forth you know now as an sov and all that history has to acknowledge surely yeah I would say yeah it's definitely something it's the reason why Gold's of seven trillion dollar market and Bitcoin

So you know my name's 150 billion dollars right now maybe a hundred billion I mean it's the reason and the difference to the scale the market I don't think it gives gold so much any benefits in the long term I think in the

Short term it's the it's the reason why there's a difference in value the thing I look more to the fundamental properties in this case and I can actually see a lot of ways or Bitcoin would be more favorable in government

Size because in the case of gold we have to first look at all the differences in properties here the first thing I think about is supply the reason why bitcoin is loved by so many as well as gold is that it feels limiting in nature bitcoin

Is relatively limited because sorry excuse me gold is relatively limited because there's a certain amount within the ground we can extract and over time the idea yes well that's the thing technically gold yes is is finite maybe

In the sense of the supply we have on earth there's also the projection that somewhere in space we can I know but let's be really bad it doesn't know I know big about they possibly let you asteroid your but here's here's the

Thing that makes it not finite in nature because we do have maybe a finite supply on earth but over time we don't know what that supply is we have no way of extracting an actual number of how much we have on planet earth and because of

That we have had over the last century about two percent annual inflation one to two percent annual inflation gold markets there's actually a really interesting chart that came I think from the Financial Times

It's very difficult to find this data but to actually showcase Gold's inflation over time and it showed over the last two centuries how gold supply has gone basically I'll try to match to my webcam here is basically

Gone like parabolic over the last few years yes people know it but it's still much more limited been a lot of fiat currencies right and Nick the thing is as well once again the fact that we can't necessarily prove the

The finite nature because some of it hasn't yet been discovered doesn't dismiss the scarcity of this resource and that's very important because and the other point to make here you know to play the devil's advocate is that we

Talked about the come present-day utility or the means in which it's valorized and that is predominantly through that store of value sort of sort of perspective but that's on the basis I would argue of many of millennia of

History whereby it's built up a sense semblance of value in different areas in so that is something that people prize I think that's very important to acknowledge because people don't you know put forward the argument that

Utility itself has value in that context of historical developments to a point where sov is the main point a point of main perspective of value today likewise the fact that people overlook that it was a currency you know well and truly

In the VC era of time it was used as a currency at that time so I think that people overlook that gold itself didn't emerge as a currency later in the day you know in terms of time and development it was the currency and and

Now in fact the predominant use case has merged or moved into what is now an S IV so we move it back to BTC for example let's keep going and let's explore you know how you see this juxtaposition because it sounds like Nick you don't

Disregard the value of gold no yeah no I think God is an absolutely valuable asset I honestly wish I owned more of myself I have actually had a little gold coin that a a gold and silver coin that I was actually given from a friend of

Mine but ya know I think about it gold in this case is that it has better some properties that Bitcoin doesn't have it does have real commercial use cases same spill for that's why precious metals I think even in times good or bad may not

Be the worst thing to have in your portfolio but along with that you have to think about some of the properties that gold and silver have their tangible you can for example I mean they do I would say in this case if you know for

Example if you have worries about the again these are kind of this is a fart criticism kinda like my criticism of the idea you could go in space and mine gold then coins Network could shut down if

There was a solar flare or you know the internet gets blown out right and that time a doomsday scenario gold and silver went out I mean there's a lot of different things that are good with with gold and that's why I don't I don't

Think there's any supposed competition between the two and I think what bitcoin serves as is it serves as a not only a global hedge but it serves just the next door value for Millennials Generation Z in this case if I'm really thinking it

From an investor perspective no matter of bitcoins really got the fundaments will know how to really be better than Gold's it's going to be for my generation the hedge that people go to and kind of the the way that people kind

Of have a way out and opting out of the banking system in this case and it's at least for me lending to and with the with the finite supply that Bitcoin has 21 million coins it becomes very clear in this case again the difference

Between limited and finite where we know the rules from the start that we know predominantly a twenty one hundred you know there is going to be 21 million bitcoins in circulation and no more ryan equate definitely going to talk about

That because it's a lot of conjecture about that among some of the academics about whether or not BTC by design from a console consensus perspective is indeed fine and I'm sure you know about that question but I want

To talk more about non correlation for a second and asymmetry because some of the maximalists and some of the Bitcoin is really put for that argument that it is a non correlated asset that it you know has a symmetrical point of value can you

Tell us a little bit more about that because in many instances that were using traditional markets to really explore this idea but then race in the recent times it's been obvious that there's been a real mismatch mismatch in

That argument in that sometimes the correlations were there and perhaps you know for that reason the argument is do is de based because there it has been no overt patent at all I don't think there's too many correlate

Like Bitcoin doesn't correlate to many things I think it's very easy to find correlations it's kind of and someone from myself ring someone used to love a good conspiracy it's always some people sometimes overanalyze and over-connected

The thing about Bitcoin in this case the reason why it as well as gold I believe but they both share this property of being an asymmetric or you know something that's completely separate from the woman's case it's not

Correlated directly if anything's assembly with the fact that it's not created or controlled by any government or corporation or entity in this case now you could say maybe the miners in this case that's fair but the miners

Have an incentive structure so they aren't seen as a threat to the network in this case they're the security that provides you know Terence that's true it depends on I guess the magnitude and the all one particular mining entity you

Know in that sense you know mining monopolies could be yeah the idea the idea is that the game theory of Bitcoin is that as more miners come onto the network it becomes more expensive to do that 51% of time right and to try to

Corrupt it in that case but none but you're in this case is basically the idea between Bitcoin and gold in this case is that if for example unlike the US dollar if the US economy goes into recession the US dollar will crash or

Will face a depreciation in its purchasing power or as Bitcoin it's not tied to the u.s. in this case now if everyone in the US was using Bitcoin in that case yes it probably would lead to a devaluation this case rise in that

Case you know if it's it but the thing about it is well in this case is it hedges much better because it's not going too deeply in this case oh it's not going to inflate in its value in this case and they used to freeze you

Exactly and for that reason it makes me wonder why some of the prominent speakers in the crypto space even bother referring to other markets in a comparative or contrasted way because if it works in its own isolated state and

It's beautiful sort of independent form why is there references to inverted markets you know to you know correlations in any way when literally the same breath they're saying it's

Asymmetric and it's uncorrelated or it's non-correlated I would say in this case the the reason people bring it up I mean it's for a mixture of those from me for example like myself who are just interested in financial markets and have

Kind of been you know watching a lot of the interesting fundamentals and in monetary policy and the financial sector starting to kind of wobble it's fun to watch but along with that as well I think that a lot of people state that

This is going to be the catalyst that drives a lot of capital to crypto currencies and a lot of buy-side demand and this again goes towards the stored value or hedge argument the idea that people believe

That there's going to be a big exit out of markets due to recession currency depreciation really insane markets like the negative yielding bond crisis that's going on there's about sixteen point seven trillion dollars of government

Bonds I shouldn't general bond sorry it's mostly government bonds but it's also going over debt as well that's negative yielding so if you're holding that you're actually having to pay to hold those bonds wrong and you're losing

Money so it doesn't make much sense but the thing is you have the the way that ludicrous bubbles like that get built up is because of really flaunt flawed fundamental systems where the bonds the value of the bonds go up over time as

The yield drops so people are like a Ponzi they're just getting in in this case it's this this bubble that's getting blown up and to magnitudes of proportions until finally someone pulls the trigger to exit and a lot of wealth

Is gonna evaporate so they're going to look to park that capital somewhere penny stocks three properties exactly and you raise a good point Nick when you say Ponzi one thing I have learned as I've started to study more about the

Dynamics of money and the dynamics of power is that there's nothing new in the narrative kanji when it comes to Wall Street or when it comes to you know historical means in which states of and and enterprises were trying to a sort of

Assume a position of economic control I mean Ponzi sometimes is I think not rude it is assumed to be something that's illegal and something to be in completely inappropriate and that's true but we don't necessarily explore how it

Can be likened to some of the operations of traditional business of traditional economies because sometimes it's ponzi ish in there some a severe but not Galit Aryan not fair and not for the people yeah I think that term Ponzi ish is

Really good because sometimes Ponzi scheme can be misused in this case and is sometimes catch myself with this but I would say you could use the fitting term would be bubble in this case I mean people always say the bitcoins a bubble

Because it goes up 20 30 X and then it crashes 80% that does it makes I mean yes you could say that with in the short term it was above that doesn't make Bitcoin a scam or pawns in this case its same goes for

Equity markets and housing and you know the housing market when they go into bubbles you can you can say it's very ponds yes in this sense but the reason why the gourd is so large is because there's usually very interesting

Mechanisms utilized to push values high so we've been you know I think before the show we were talking about the equity market and the thing is over the last decade of the United States and this has been you know duplicated

Everywhere just no problem here and yes because I live here but the Federal Reserve really led the charge by lowering interest rates and the world one of the world economies down to zero percent and what I did is it led people

To rapidly speculating on assets it didn't lead to more lending like they said they were intending to happen it really just led people to going about buying assets because if capital is free you can buy just about anything and it's

Gonna go up in value if everyone else is doing the same thing and if people for example when they go about investing in stocks or you know whatever maybe they buy ETFs that are basketed investments it's as passive investing in this case

And you know it's people aren't thinking about what they're buying they're just buying a basket and that's you know the same things can infect crypto markets and build up a rampant bubbles it's exactly why we have the retail bubble in

Bitcoin when it went up all the way to 20,000 exactly and we see and you'll see we had to open up a coin basic right and we see a recurring bubble in that sense but I wanted to talk about that it's it's perfect again in a segue in terms

Of the the emotive aspect of crypto the narrative aspect the network aspect the network effects as well now we've seen as you mentioned before quite rightly we've seen examples of bubbles bursting and then you know

Developing again and once again another bubble would emerge in the development of the Bitcoin history and suggestions are being made that that's a very natural progression as it moves towards its use case or one of them being some

Sort of borderless system in some way to advantage you know the masses but in doing so some would also argue this is a millennial coin of belief in that you know where while in the meantime in this interim phase as sov you know sort of

Narrative is upheld many people are suggesting you know huddled for now you know wait for the rest of the meaning of Bitcoin to come forth and in doing so there's such a reliance it seems on the narratives and the networks within

Bitcoin itself what do you think about that so they can you rephrase them that case I see for example it like it might seem kind of hopeful for example to just hope that one day it's gonna become a story about and we all kind of huddle it

Kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecies is it well it's really it's more a case of right now Nick a lot of people are being sold a message from the Maximus from the bitcoiners from anyone who's really a proponent that the

Primary asset right now on the point of value is the sov but there's also suggestions if you look at a lot of the bitcoiners they're suggesting that there's a progression this is just one part of many phases of Bitcoin and balls

And so you know if we if any of them are holding that position of future point of value whether that be a currency wouldn't that be some other thing the point is the message being sold right now is huddle the message right now is

Being it's old I'll saw value and so my question is what's the power of belief what's the value of belief alone when we see so many of those in this camp of the maximalist and the bitcoiners

Sending the message forth of value this system hold it believe it now the power of belief is immense in a social network yeah I mean what happens in everything I mean you have for example people who tell you to believe and different types

Of goods and services people ID for example I'll give you an example when people ways tell me like you know I hate when they hear I do investing they're like have you put any money in the property market probably remark it

Always goes up or you have you put money in equities and stock my stock market always seems to go of every dipping goes down and goes back up and I think it's the same kind of thing that crypto there are people who are gonna selfishly

Promote it whether they understand I'm there's there's I will tell you this I'm not the brightest mine when it comes to crypto I'll say that right off the bat but man when I see some people out there promoting crypto who I can obviously

Tell don't know the first thing about it yes whirring yeah there's a lot of people out there and it's it's obviously for selfish interest in this case fair point they have a room to be here and stuff and I think in due time people

Filter out who's you know really in the space for a breeze and it knows their stuff but the thing the thing that I want to get to here is that I kind of fit into that camp for example believing that there is some potential for a

Bitcoin move and that the thing is you have to do that with any investment every investment is not finite if I invest in ExxonMobil I have to hope that over the next decade or two that they have already started the plans to change

From the oil-producing company to a renewable energy company right I'm making a huge bet especially investing in a giant like them who can make it really a poor decision not to reinvest for the next wave of energy and they go

To zero and another company comes up in the case of Bitcoin as I mentioned earlier that thing that D Bank and a few other startups are working on these kind of new interesting subtle use cases for Bitcoin or other things that's sort that

We haven't even discussed I believe that there's a lot of potential for Bitcoin it's like aetherium a lot of people for example mention how oh I'm so inefficient or you know for example had a lot of I it's just a platform priciest

If you're ian has one thing that's very valuable that you can't just buy and that is the etherium developer community depends of how its network effects hence this question as well about the community yes exactly

You're very right the etherium thousands of developers are probably going to be its biggest solidification being probably the most predominant network if not you know equal or slightly under bitcoins network in the sense of value

Of the next few years because with the network effect of having developers and users that's what makes any network expand you can have the greatest product in the world you can have the greatest company with the greatest solution or to

Any court is any core problem but if you can't market it if you can't get people using it it will never materialize this cube is an absolutely fundamental point here you know the power of the narrative is also connected with the power of the

Network which is connected with the power the developers in the theorems case and certainly the the power of I'm not really sure that the camp would be in BTC whether that be the coders and those

Who are the whole probably the core developers you know the Hodler z– because the reason why I add the HOD lers Nick is because the many of the people who advocate for BTC right now as a store of value in as you know and

Maintain that whole model philosophy is arguably because they own it and so the powered ownership in the BTC camp is very very powerful when it comes to advocating for more of that narrative sov and whereas with etherium for

Example there's a very strong advocating for development there's a very strong implication for applications so you know if we hop back to a BTC for a second is it do you think that this whole retrospective to the point of the fact

That someone bought and now whole BTC is that possibly stifling it to become more of it you know what it was potentially aimed to be which was to evolve into like a multitude of different functionalities well again as he had

Stated Brad you know bitcoins original intention was to be just electronic cash it was just to be that Bob sends Bitcoin Dallas in this case today and I think that's an interesting use case it's pure pure cash and maybe in that case I think

Store values inherent you need to be able to have if I'm holding Bitcoin and then sending it later I need to be able to have a relative understanding of the value of it but the thing is a theorems network from the get-go was very clear

And that it wanted to be a world supercomputer funny enough though is that it didn't become that it became something completely out they come he became something else it became a platform richly for I SEOs they didn't

Really work too well and then now it's coming a platform for decentralized financial services and broadening access to financial services and I'll tell you this Brad to really kind of build on your point because obviously you are

You're bringing some very good I think criticisms to the table for the Bitcoin community you know I've completely I have I hold Bitcoin and I hold a lot of other cryptocurrencies as well it's where I'm most exposed personally and

But and I'll tell you I have no interest you know continuing to chatter and that not so much that this isn't a negative thing I don't have the interest that I used to have in the big when community for the reason being that

There isn't that kind of narrative of oh my god we need to expand financial services we need to open this up we need to make borderless finance we need to completely take down the banking sector I've seen a lot of those people and

Really bright minded individuals who are just so kind and in the movement for the right reasons they're in the dphi movement but and they're on aetherium because if fearing the only blocked him they can really do

That outside of again those few exceptions as I mentioned the bank and a few others I just I haven't gone in that respect what do you think of those maximalist those small number who are the extreme maximalism I'm not just

Alluding to BTC I'm just talking more of the agender of these kinds of extremists when they literally shut down all prospects of possibilities when it comes to the technological applications the technological advancement for better

Outcomes for us all why are they so ignorant in that way and is it actually detracting from the value of BTC in the bitcoiners who are not actually like that it deserves bonus simply if it's just tribal mentality if I even let's

Say for example I was a Bitcoin maximalist or you know eath max but I loved one blockchain over the other you know it's a very like tribal response to be defensive and say all these other things are terrible and you spend your

Entire day talking about it and that proves that you've got some probably some rooted insecurities about your investment in this case and that's probably why you should diversify maybe give another piece of technology a

Chance fascinating perspective and Nick on top of that too although people don't talk about this I don't think anyone has actually broached and clearly some of those Maximus are paid now what I mean by that is you might have third party

Entities sponsoring their programs or sponsoring you know their agenda I mean we can name some big big names when it comes to Bitcoin maximalist but do you think that's an issue in itself is that not only are they significant holders of

The coin itself but they're also paid to promote this does that indeed thought their maintenance oh they just keep maintaining that position and not look beyond to the integrity of the tech yeah there are some people who get carried

Away with money and things of those sorts I mean I've seen a lot of youtubers come and go over the you know few years since we've kind of been you know doing videos I think you and I both know we've talked and I think

In the past the phases of youtubers there is that there was the what was the first the big connect wave and in a later part of 2017 gone and as iou's i yeah ii when i ii when i talk about was the hype wave and that was the i co

A 100x wave of youtubers and those guys i get i don't need any news people know who they are and they're gone if you've been around the space for that time and stuff and it's a I think very clearly now we get down to youtubers like

Yourself when I have brown and a few others and stuff I think are much more quality and there's still some people I know you've been for example very driven on the idea of like pointing out a lot of youtubers who have seemed it kind of

For example you caught up in money and as fare some people do we do sponsor on the channel but we don't like go to the extreme where for example I cover anything that I don't feel comfortable with I don't cover make us I

Don't try to cover I cos or I use and something I think it's really kind of wrong to cover that and I very much respect that Nico Fick I respect the fact that you need to eat and I think many people understand that I mean at

The end of the day your premise is education and tech but that's where many people differ Nick in the space and many of the different speakers in its face in that public privileged position they're looking more about how they can fill

Their bags stack their sacks get more BTC fundamentally or whatever it is that they value and they're in doing so sometimes they don't consider their audience they don't consider the power they have and the privilege they have I

Think that's more the point so looking back now you are right many people did certainly shield for Schilling sake what hopefully I you know you're laying down a foundation and a precedent for is trying to set forth and really strong

Narrative that education and technology really is the bedrock of the future of all of this to even work you know I mean I'll tell you this spread per se for me the thing that like keeps me up at night is I I stress more about not knowing

Whether or not there are more people because of me getting involved in crypto or having some kind of understanding or exposure to this new asset class because I really do think it's gonna be very important I don't care about I don't

Their thing about money and wealth is some people get caught up and I've seen it as I've gotten to travel again a lot of great people I'm also seeing some people carried away by all the craziness said that's face the

Countenance is that kind of like high life feeling some people get don't really care about it becomes almost a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy I suppose because money is part of the the nature of this system that there's

Always going to be a camp of those that are essentially trying to utilize the system to their own ends you know to basically capitalize on the beauty of this Pabna and of the prospects of this technology because obviously being

Tokenized the money is involved in the prospects of being paid are there so it all comes down a personal agenda and that's why we are friends beyond just you know these these collegial discussions where we do open up you know

And talk about different perspectives what matters is that we're open to technological reform and we're and our premise is not about trying to essentially send a message forth of technology that may not have any value

You know just for the sake of being paid that is a big difference because there's a huge issue right now in many of the questionable startups are now in the space are offering substantial amounts of money so many different parties so

That they can get a platform for starting when perhaps they shouldn't yeah yeah I think in due time again as I mentioned it's really upsetting because I wish it would just kind of go away that wouldn't be a problem but it's it's

A filtering process and people you know eventually sometimes again people get burned and maybe they learn you know for example I put trust in someone for this might as well not put my trust in them anymore and sometimes people go off and

Though they'll you know they'll look for others people who have showed consistency and I think that's something that in due time it will come and stuff I know you've been doing a great job Brad you've been consistent from the

Beginning since I'm washing everything that's it that's just up to you I know you're having me on your channel but I just wanted to say I designed in all seriousness I mean again it's it's a very good thing so there are a lot of

People in the space and again asking very interesting questions bringing on people from different viewpoints I think that's what's very relevant for this space is also made not to shield your bags either but when it comes to you

Know you're pretty high up there everyone respects you because you don't you say what you think your protec and you really you are it's clear Nick that you're here for the long term and that's what sets you apart is that they're like

People are thinking short-term perhaps that you're certainly not and I imagine you want to be around in you know discussing these topics and really representing this face as long as you can so it's you and congratulations for

All you've achieved and let's move it back a little bit more to some tough stuff and this is with regard to let's start with some positive stuff and let you speak with regard to some of the BTC assets or features that are you know the

Things that people regard as points of value and then I want to talk about social consensus the power of that whether or not that can actually be changed fundamentally and is it mutable so some of the things that I found as

Statements for assets for BTC that it has a high stock to flow ratio we talked about the issue of being non correlated but also it's high to visibility or the fact that it is a divisible system so can we talk about the stock to flow

Ratio why it's of benefit and why do visibility merits mm-hmm yeah well I'd say in a sense of divisibility I would say it's more if not the fact that it can divide so many times I think breaking something down to

One set is not something you'll have to really do unless again it becomes a global store value and you could anything digital for example if we really wanted to digital sense we could break into you know fractions of a cent

In this case that we wanted to I think the value comes in the sense on the Bitcoin network that it's easy to divide that money in the sense versus it's you know contrarian competitor in this case is its Foley's throwing around which is

Gold so I think that's really where it's the visibility it's beneficial because gold can be divisible it's just that it's very difficult to divide with it's it's a certain type of nature in the sense of the metal and this is the high

You know the the ratio that you're talking about I'll be fair I don't know if I could really speak as to whether or not that would be a benefit or not I would say you know if you could dive into a little bit deeper maybe I could

Explain it but you know what was the what was the point well just the point that it has a high stock to flow ratio so just in basic economics in a sum I give you that it's a point of value just the fact that it

Is possible and then show exists but we can leave that for another time disk or discuss that later there's so much to get through the thing I wanted to focus on is the social consensus aspect now because Nick one of

The things that some of the technological sort of proponents of of other forms of sound money suggests is that one of the key risks or inherent challenges to the success of BTC potentially is that it it may not be the

Fact it may not be some money in their position because when it comes to the the finite supply or that fixed supply when it comes to the hard cap itself some are suggesting that it can be is mutable and that it can be changed now

What do you say to some of them who suggests that the block reward for example can be changed and obviously the hard cap and you know many different aspects of its design right I'd say that that's been something that's kept me up

At night sometimes as I've thought about like Bitcoin and crypto is is whether or not that would ever change I've come to the conclusion that that would only change when it would become an issue like sometime in 2100 so the nice thing

Is you know you and I probably won't have to think about it on our lives it is something it's very interesting to talk about you know what what happens one day when the block or does run out well you're never really going to get us

One of two things because mining is it's economics at the end of the day there is a cost to mine so you'd either have wanted two things either a the block reward at least to my understanding and I could be missing a

Third scenario a the mining reward changes and there is some increase in the supply over time probably something that will take off people too much that allows minors to still remain profitable and be the other scenario in this case

Would be that the blackboard does not change the only thing keeping people as an incentive to mine would be the fees and what you're going to probably get is either a huge jack up and fees on the network for settlement layer

Transactions which will probably turn up a lot of users so it's probably not gonna be that it's either we're most likely going to be a huge decline in the hash rate in this case a lot of people a lot less people mining in this case on

The network either in scenarios where it's actually sound to be able to mine due to low electricity costs or it would be due to the fact that there's such a drop in competition that you know they're more likely to discover a block

So those are the kind of scenarios I'd see what would be really interesting I was just thinking about a possible third scenario I think with the increase of the block award in this case that maybe it could be that the block reward is it

Varies over time in this case depending on the hash rate so like you know for example if we wanted to maintain the hash rate where we were at that given time no not I'm kind of going down a rabbit

Hole I guess I better just well but I respect the fact that you are because the reality is that when we posed this question we have to anyway it is a rapid hole in itself it's a loaded question but in asking is Nick the reason I did

And I appreciate that you know we don't talk about that third proposal yet because I don't want to sort of put your magician situation where you suggesting that but more to the point that when we consider the value of government

Enterprise support in the long term so say for example you have you know a system in play where it's cleared by the people made by the people designed for the people but eventually it gain Gunners that adoption mean so they're

Indirectly governments and at a price back it's simply because it's working or even if they don't the point is that adoption flourishes now for the in that in that situation the big question is does the

Fact that we don't know the outcome we don't know that whether or not this social consensus aspect is relevant or not is it a vulnerability to the point where it debates is some of the real part holistic trust in the

Integrity of the software I'm really serious about this because if it is a problem if it is indeed a bit of a conundrum at the very least doesn't that also create some fractures of trust so in this case it just to make clear of

The point it's basically if governments and more kind of authoritative institutions in the world so if they don't really come on board with accepting cryptocurrencies and long term maybe they crack down for example yeah

You know is is bitcoins especially especially in a lot and a lot of Bitcoin Nick because in obviously the ideal scenario for the maximalists and the Bitcoin is is to see a widespread flourishing of this technology

You know adoption right through every sector all the way to perhaps enterprising government indirectly and I mean that indirectly because obviously you want to be a people's coin but to achieve that you need trust you know in

A software you absolutely do so the question is is social consensus a risk that is such that it corrodes some of that fundamental technological trust so Bitcoin doesn't really you know on a technical side Bitcoin does not depend

On the world adopting it it's technology works in the sense of it being actually like you know for example we're considering market value and whether or not people will be able to use in their day-to-day lives yeah government will

Play some role in that I think the interesting thing though is I'm very observatory I for example I can make an argument spouting the same kind of regurgitated facts people say all governments can't stop Bitcoin because

The sensitive resistant yada yada thing I know this is just as a point of view is I noticed I look across the world and maybe outside of a few anomalies maybe like the Venezuelan government or a few other stuff maybe try to censor crypto

Or of say today we're going to regulate it very hard mmm the world's hasn't really you know done anything to stop Bitcoin which is probably no interesting thing and that's very true not yet fair point but it's the thing I've noticed is

That usually with new emerging technologies like that the demon threat and his has now been relatively understood by central banks and kind of the financial regulators of the world they haven't been able to really stop it

Or they haven't decided to really do anything to stop it it's funny you say that because we've seen any you react to it Nick we've seen Lyonne a very vehement action to Libra so the question is not

So much will or won't they react to certain cryptocurrencies are certain startups that have a suggestion of monetary policy control and especially comes to something like Libra because yet they already had such a major

Platform to sort of threaten the status quo so the question more so is are we paying attention to the fact that now it's time to see government's react I think that the reason why governments are having such reaction is obviously

Facebook as an entity has a lot of influence in the world but I think that as well for those who really understand this technology the reason why they would be more hostile to something like Libra is because it's in its early

Stages and it's under a central set of companies right and this is the cool thing about Bitcoin is that fundamentally what makes it a cryptocurrency and what makes Labor not a cryptocurrency in my mind it might

Make it you know a new form of currency but not a cryptocurrency is that if there is a way in this case for Libra to be censored by government officials to be able to shut down the Libra Association to for example you know for

Example in anyway strip ownership of the assets that are supposedly backing Libra or be able to freeze transactions in this case to seize underlying value from your users account this would be the same with the central bank

Cryptocurrency I know that there would be some backdoor in this case or someone to be able to free someone's transactions the central banks won't allow that with digital currency but this is where Bitcoin stands out the

Idea of public and private piki a public and private key encryption that's what makes Bitcoin a theory among these Kripke's unique is that no one can freeze your transaction so long as the network is humming along but it's it's a

Consensus mechanism in this case proof of work which has been used on Bitcoin in aetherium no one can take away your right in that case to your funds you're right absolutely important point I mean we've seen Belgium for example they did

Certainly sees a huge stash of BTC but that was more you know a criminal investigation that their their findings and so they well drink it's well known they got access to the private key that's that's the thing if you if you do

Poor mismanagement your private key or if you for example expose a locational of course it's it's like any form in case but the cool thing is is that unlike digital money in the current banking system where five money in my

Account some people have had this they've experienced when being related to crypto they see their bank accounts just getting shut down with no question no explanation right but what happens if legislation starts to be put forward

Where where as you know you know there's all kinds of laws made to serve the regimes that be and the powers that be so what happens if they start to make laws to make it possible to demand that you relinquish your soul or your private

Keys right I have a very like kind of detailed answer to that I first off initially it tends to be that when governments ever try to over-regulate something or censor some form of new technology it gets smarter it gets

Better we saw this in you know for example a wide range of different industries and I hate to kind of relate it because it's it's seen as a criminal activity but torrenting is a very good example of

This or you know you know for example mass media distribution and it's interestingly enough a peer-to-peer technology and so Bitcoin and Bitcoin could be currencies function in the same way it is peer-to-peer it is censorship

Resistant of nature but I would say this I think that what would happen is that during a time of crisis when for example global economies go into recession it governments may be able to send this for temporarily in this case and make it

Where the incentives to really accept and use crypto for most use cases are not beneficial when it comes time and there's enough of an incentive to actually adopt crypto which I'll be fair we haven't seen yet on one scale when

That time comes people will go through those extra means and I think it's what you're seeing in Argentina so you're seeing a lot of these developing economies whether it be gold or silver or Bitcoin or all these different hedges

People will thrive for it in this case they they take the extra steps and requirements in order to get access to it even though it's extremely difficult with the regulatory frameworks right in the case in the case of Libra when you

Can't store your wealth in Libra and you know you know know that governments won't be able to censor in this case if you enter private keys because if they shut the door off to Venezuelan citizens because Maduro says so then you're out

Of luck you can't use that payment and they call so in that in that sense there's an intractable bond between enterprise and the government in almost every sovereign nation globally so you raise a good point there the

Question mark will always be on the centralized aspects of Libra or any other entity that emerges clearly with its own profit yeah and the profit for those that back it's in mine so you raise a very valid point now let's push

It back a bit to the discretion of the people for a moment now one thing you have cleared up is the Bitcoin vehicle design and technology really works in isolation from the interest of enterprising government you made that

Clear now we're going to talk about the fundamentals and form of the question mark of social consensus whether or not that can be changed and thwarted technologically now that would in I would argue impact the trust for the

People for their users and the supporters of Bitcoin irrespective of government irrespective of enterprise that it can change over time the fact that it can be potentially changed how does that also relate to the trust from

The people in supporting something that maybe causes concern for them if indeed it's possible so the plausibility question is really not just for enterprising and government I didn't make that clear yeah I think that the

Incentive structure behind Bitcoin makes it highly unlikely that any severe negative changes would ever come because the economic incentives are there to protect it any system of the world anything is you know mutable to change

In this case I think that's something we have to accept so we can't just kind of rail on Bitcoin for that if a government decides to go haywire and mismanage monetary policy or a central bank decides to do that or a government you

Know goes radical and set some set of policies then it can happen and it's happened throughout history the thing about Bitcoin in this case is that it has an economic barricade in this case that says the miners have an incentive

To make sure that bitcoins network operates as intended and along with that as well that if there is any changes over time that we are slow about it that we are certain about what we're changing and that we make sure that this isn't

Something that's going to destroy all of the foundation we built so segments for example rock something simple and then a lot of people were confident in the security that it would have no damage to the network it was implemented on

Litecoin so many people were still hesitant about it don't know if we want to we don't know we're not sure if we won't change the block structure here just to get the small benefits that might bring for

Lightning Network and for examples well the extra block size for those who upgrade to a site with blocks again over time we have integrated it it was a safe update and again ever since then if you think about it you know that was back

Two years ago really when I was starting my youtube channel when seg was being talked about anything in August it was implemented you know it's been two years but one has seen major improvements like that in a while

So I think that that would be the time-tested error of Bitcoin and escape it or not error it's very clear also there's a rivet there's a reticence to tweak it too much because once again you know it's it's one of its key points of

Value especially coming from the cord Ed's of BTC is it security and they don't want to essentially mess it up you know for the people by doing too many tweaks and – I think and not letting me too ambitious too quickly you know we

Were talking earlier about Bitcoin being programmable money I think this kind of segues in this topic what I think's gonna happen Brad as as much as I've got my dislikes about you know – the efficiency point of where lightning

Network is and a lot of this supposed scaling solutions for crypto networks I wish we were further ahead that's the only thing I can say because I don't want to touch them I think there's a lot of bright minds working on these

Projects and it's wrong for me as someone who can't contribute to criticize them that to that degree but I will say this I think what's going to happen is that you're going to have all types of different layer – and you can

Call them layer to whatever you want to label is things that are built on top of the Bitcoin network all Bitcoin has to do is do it experience done and then it's to provide a framework where people can build on top of it and maybe it's at

The point where it can do that again I'm just not in a developer to the degree of where I can really gauge that I can see that on a theorem right now the defy movement is already propagating this I can go earn six to six to nine percent

Interest on money right now I can't do the bank account well thank you for that name – interrupts no I don't understand let's talk about that in the context of the forked family of BTC you know when we talk about Bitcoin s to be when we

Talk about Bitcoin cash we have to because they have own unique agenda they have their own philosophical premise and one wants to be seamless borderless cash the other one wants to also be programmable by

Design and you know applications to its narrative and then obviously you're suggesting that would be good for Bitcoin some of the Bitcoin is don't not that for Bitcoin it sells they want to keep it raw keep it is very crude in its

Design so what are your thoughts on the forks what are your thoughts on the different narratives and is there any value in any of them and you know it's an open question yeah like most Awkward Zout there I put

The same kind of risk to any kind of Bitcoin fork it's very difficult to make a fork went out in the long term even if you might have the better technology as we mentioned network effects rule all that's one of the major things you need

And I think the way that both of those Forks have been marketed have probably been their biggest downfalls and for example you can take someone is disliked described right in this case who's it like for example the space is just gone

Very hawkish on stuff and with due purposes been claiming Satoshi when so you know we haven't seem to make the court payment he supposedly do but we can talk about him in a moment to force you yeah but the thing is in for example

It's it's it's kind of like as someone who for example like a probably kind of problem myself in the streets right so just being socialized and no one had to be personable I think I like to think I'm relatively personal but like the

Thing is I say well thank you I like I see the like I see Craig right and I'm like time I'm looking at bsv and I like I actually see some like interesting concepts and it's an interesting vision separate from me again it's separate

From the Bitcoin white paper but it's kind of unique and interesting and he goes around providing himself as Satoshi and Nick you write such an interesting point because you know if you look at traditional markets we didn't he put him

Invest in Google because they like the do you know the person who started it well most in it and if you look at what Bill Gates has built no-one invested because they like him in crypto you are absolutely right and network effects

Also align with personal interests you know the affiliations can connections they make in the space so we're Kraig a lot of people PACs don't know that you know he had I've heard rumors that he has you know

Conditions such as Asperger's or some sort of autism I don't know if that's true so I'll qualify that but it would make sense given that I as I'm Australian he's Australian and his behavior is anomalous to me his behavior

Is extremely arrogant and is extremely 'get istic all when he presents himself in at times and so for that reason I totally understand but if we removed Prague fruit from the equation for a second the fact that he's sensationalist

The fact that he makes these bold claims and we just look at things like his court case for example we look at the climbing issue itself forget about keen climbing Satoshi if he does have how a significant stake of BTC

Just as Krave right then are you concerned on in that respect with regard to the potential for that to impact the marketplace now I mean that more generally in the sense of the Bitcoin billionaires I really mean this the

Roger verse scenario the bit Craig writes the you know the exchange represent is that we don't know and many others in that top echelon of ownership does it concern you about this genuine ownership disparity where the top 1000

Own such a huge chunk of BTC hmm I would say you know in the worries of like a flash crash for them just selling all their BTC it really wouldn't worry me because if they were to sell it that there's the liquidity now that yes it

Would lead a major price shock and always saying that with the hashing was sorry you know we've seen in history yeah in a hundred percent I have no doubt it would probably be obviously if you're selling if you have a huge supply

On the open market compared to what you had yesterday then there's obviously gonna be a different price I I don't think it would stop Bitcoin from being what it is though I don't think it would stop people from mining Bitcoin I don't

Think would stop people from buying it and again that would be talked about or on the idea that this is a rising store value and they'll pick up the dip in that case and they'll buy more exposure to it right on is liquidity's King and

Basically the system is such that it can support that kind of movement yeah we're talking about price liquidity like you said is king in this case it's what someone will pay you know for example it might dip $2,000 or $3,000 with all that

Cell-site action but what craig and then would really want to do if they were gonna as they figured Oh tea city probably and probably also look so the question is you know that you've sort of answered

That question that potential risk when it comes to technique my concern has two people here speaking together as friends and also as colleagues we both a regard tech as paramount but when the quiddity spare amount and when price seems to be

Paramount in the space itself and network effects they don't always align with tech itself and we know in history that the alignment of tech and liquidity or the alignment of tech and the network effects has to be such that it is the

Most performant so my concern is is BTC can uphold that position with the best technology coupling that that now whole position of network effects if you understand what I mean because I'm concise at this point in time yeah I do

See what you're saying well it really depends if bitcoin is gonna be something again unless you've kind of I think brought up as an argument it's well they're not it's gonna be really used for much utility instead of a historic

Value because I mean you can take for example look at it equities any type of asset across the world usually their value is not reflected in fundamentals in this case and the fundamental utility I think you know for example Australian

Housing market and here in the United States and you know properties go for way higher value Langley word and what in what kind of utility can get out of home of course it's a very important thing from us fuel but and then that

Goes it's the same thing with Bitcoin in this case Bitcoin will go through paramour alleys it will dip down below fundamental value that's just what it does it's it's markets and that's that is something you cannot avoid it's human

Nature and this interesting proposition of kind of tech utility I think it's the incentive for real people who own a lot of Bitcoin to make utility on top of it and just support these kind of second layer projects on top of Bitcoin

Let me see that it doesn't happen do you think that BTC will survive if we don't say some sort of people aspect and build upon the code to advance it do you think it can just emerge as sound money in time irrespective

Not as much value as it could have I'll say that it's it's the idea that you know people for example what they couldn't keep going up eventually it will stop there will be enough people who own Bitcoin as a store value and for

Example there will be in it's for people to take risk elsewhere and that can make it lose some of its value and it will I think eventually Bitcoin will find a relative amount of market very similar kind of gold where

There's still some swings but you know at the end of the day goal it's pretty well well known around the world and everything and it had just with inflation quite well it doesn't really grow much over the last decade you've

Been you know terrible to be holding gold in with all the assets that have been going up now it's doing well because there's risk going on there's devaluation of currencies going on there's all kinds of things the asset

Bubble is a faltering it's the same thing a Bitcoin if we wanted to stop there I mean Bitcoin can grow to a lot it can be a multi trillion-dollar market just being a store value but I want this to become something even greater

I would love Bitcoin to be a programmable layer and being the store of value for wealth for everything in the world as I mentioned about that de banques tarp I keep mentioning that but I was one of the most interesting things

They read about Bitcoin that's related to defy and it was just showing this idea that like we could hedge all of our wealth in the world on Bitcoin as a sediment layer and Bitcoin serving as the underlying store value in this case

When we actually sell transactions and so I thought that was really fascinating I thought that was absolutely incredible and it was like a very unique way of using Bitcoin as a store value absolutely I mean you need to start

Writing some papers on this these concepts because we just need more discussions on the prospects of how Bitcoin can be regarded at the very least I mean many people are going to have you to very very strong opinions on

How Bitcoin is and should be but I also want to raise some tough questions about the power of manipulation in this face right now much of the manipulation you know we don't talk about enough but when we see thing talk about things like

China Hustle surely that conversation can move into the global hustle 2.0 in the sense that there's things going on in crypto where there are whales that are literally affecting markets there are exchanges involved in significant

Holdings who thought the market to their own ends I mean I don't know personally the depths of this but Isis strongly suspect this is happening you know right now so what are your concerns when volatility is not necessarily organic

When it's driven by things like wash training thing and I mean seriously driven by what trading more than people are talking about and when when like maca making a so powerful in this face I'm concerned Nick that volume is

Not real yeah when it comes to Bitcoin in this case I'd say that it bitcoins spot price is not so much affected by washer it's mostly all coins in this case that when when an asset is entirely traded on exchanges that can literally

Are making fake bond selves on they can set whatever prices they want in the case of Bitcoin you can't really manipulate the spot value with wash train because I might I might create some no next let's say we created the

Nick and Brad exchange right we could say Bitcoin is going for two million dollars and it just rally to five minutes ago no one's gonna care about that market rate there's there's enough solidified exchanges that provide

Liquidity to block out that now in the case of market making or maybe for reporting false form that that is true that's there is a lot of exchanges providing fake volume for Bitcoin that's saying there's 20 billion traded over

Last hour really it's about one to two billion if anything does that say given that you know there's a lot of fake reports out there to all obviously uphold the current scenario and the current overall market cap of the

Industry it does make me concern for a lot of retail investors I that's why I pointed out on my channel I when I started to see the volume on a lot of the Quinten aggregate said so my guys this is not real and some people are

Like Nick why are you saying there's only this much volume in the market because bitwise did a very good report on this and and I think that they even though they were little hawkish they discounted all of the Asian exchanges

There are there's some real volume that are and you've seen recently I think wasn't a bit it's one of the other Korean exchanges finally reverted there there was a point one I'm not sure I know it's not quite when it was oh I

Don't know I'm probably gone right now that's right yeah yeah but anyways one of them had changed their volume back everything so I think it's starting to revert now you know what's interesting too is and I will also encourage other

People to look into perhaps exploring the possibility of writing other reports if they have that kind of background because we don't have enough reports I think that our objective and neutral because even with that report Nick that

Was one of many I want to see emerge because the reason I approached this is that now with the suggestion of the globe I mentioned I don't think that it's solely you know an issue in China I

Certainly don't knowing what we know about crypto I think that there are differential agendas I think that certain exchanges in different parts of the world they want their startups to succeed those that are in the VC

Position they obviously aligned with those interests so my concern is is there more fake volume that we then we are really talking about and is it beyond even the ones that reported by that report itself I want to see more

Reports and also in that sense the point of the wash trading I wanted to raise the question to you about the other startups the old coins as we know them in terms of how they can impact impact BTC because if there is rife washed

Trading there in that camp surely because there's a very dirt of institutional money currently pouring in that the old coin system fuels arguably this reciprocal pendulum set of effect between the alts and Bitcoin in terms of

You know how people sort of traverse the space with their money and even though obviously the stable coins as a safeguard so does it concern you that alts still affect me to see in that sense if watch

Trading is rife I would say that not so much because it's I think it's the people are starting to wake up to it anyone with serious money in crypto is realized like I mean you can't even see it on some of the major corn aggregate

Sites I'm really thinking I wish they were more accountable on top of this you can see there's all these like grandma's there's this one like agree agree Tia that I saw recently on yeah I saw that I couldn't understand that at all char

Just literally goes crazy just shoots up to the moon and then dumps and it's like what that is is you look at the exchanges I think people are smart enough to look at this and they see like wait a minute like this is all happening

On no-name exchanges they're not on any real regulated US or European or Australian exchanges and then there's no regular these are no-name exchanges their reporting they've got more volume than buying this and lo and behold it

Just goes up to the sky and everything that starts dumping so what's really happening there I mean most some people might not understand that what's really happening is that they're artificially giving this token that they created a

Value an increased value over time on their exchange with fake and when users see this it's there some that are getting duped into the idea that oh my gosh this thing keeps going up I need to put my money and so they

Deposit the money on the exchange and they buy the underlying asset but the thing is they never bought the interline token it's the funny thing what the exchange is intended purpose is is to get your crypto on their exchange

Exactly at any cost and often those things like buybacks of this whatever means is in the backend discussions between the startup in the exchange to optimize the exchange the economics sort of outcome would evacuate from a tooth

What would they they already profit when you send your money to them because the thing is you're sending Bitcoin or theorem or some kind of like trade like all corner stable coin and what they're doing their whole goal is to send it

Because once you've sent it it's gone their money right and that there was actually on coin market cab they actually started putting alerts now thankfully they did it like this I haven't seen another coin aggregate

Sites do it where they basically set an alert next to exchanges that have had reports where people can't withdraw their funds and that's I've been saying this for months and we're now finally starting to see it where people are just

Catching on to it and now they're like ok absolutely imperative point we make because obviously we want to make sure people not getting wrecked as we call it can over and over one of the big issues right now is startups control of lock

Ups and how they amend them to suit their own ends and particularly those behind them even with pressures from either market makers beasties I'm not sure who is doing this but the lock ups aren't necessarily reinforcing trust in

The entire system because they're not necessarily working for everyone but Nick what was interesting in you discussing the issues you know with regard the alts in terms of trust what one thing is for sure is that with BTC

You don't have those centralized parties who don't have that question of control because it's already automated in music it's already unfollowed us open source technology and perhaps that's the asset there one of them in that it's

Operational now compared to the situation we're in if we're talking about the issues of trust in all coins one of the things that can happen quite a lot if we're living is the thing you may made a point of is that it's one

Thing for it to go up in value substantially you know but it's another thing for that to have proper and authentic liquidity and often the agenda is to push the price of that for those you know for certain startups

To have this sort of facade of value but when it comes to genuine access and genuine real value it's not necessarily premise on the the authentic developments of that that start up and I mean start up because I want to raise

The question to you about the difference between commissioned entities sorry I'm to clarify the centralized entities as startups that may utilize decentralized or blockchain based technologies that have a token to then infer that there's

A correlation when there's not so I won't name names but there are startups perhaps that are transitioning their usual izing the token for a crowd funding as a crown funding mechanism it's not actually designed as a utility

Token just five being sold as that Nick they make their money but their real asset is actually in their transition using that money into a private company it has no correlation at all with that utility so my concern is some of these

Alts old startups are not necessarily disclosing their intention of what that tokens actually for in the beginning and perhaps almost do you know what I mean I was yeah and just so I guess gonna clear it so when you're saying strips you're

Talking about one of the IC OS and like an ayios whatever it may be well not really the reason why Nick is because the IO and the ICO is is some of them for sure but that's just a mechanism to start you know the IE on your IC o—-

Is just literally a marketing ploy but you don't need to use an IE or an IC o—- to be in this camp you could just literally start but the point is it's all about the token sometimes that token literally has no correlation at all with

The business itself to start up actually emerging separately yeah well I think that's why you've got the rest of security tokens because people realized equity if your systems based off revenue then people are gonna eventually say Oh

Hon I want a piece of the company I want to look you know I want to be supplying that kit that's why I asked Nick is because do you think that secure tokens in some respects are going to have a real significant position in the

Future given that right now a security would imply equity would imply dividends you know a lot more trust in that scenario if they're moving in a private sector scenario because if the token doesn't actually have any authentic

Correlation with the business they're building then wtx is what I'm thinking no no no your absolute that's fine most all coins are gonna fail like right okay like unless they have a really good utility case the

Thing is to to clarify the point about security tokens if you know there's a lot of platforms coming out better security token platforms that just basically their main objective is to come to provide a platform people can

Deploy a new token that represents equity or some ownership of something and I think that that's like cool and all but what I really think is the most fasting platform right now is Raven coin and this is one that's been doing it in

More of a decentralized way it's basically we're just like on fearing with creating year C 20 tokens on their network you can create and digitize pretty much any asset in the world and I thought they did it in a very unique way

Comparative to trying to be you know regulatory compliant and do everything kind of by the books they're kind of the Bitcoin for digital assets okay so I I recommend if you haven't looked into it and also for your audience if you guys

Haven't it's founded by a lot of cypherpunks a lot of people who you know again we're really early on the BTC camp and stuff you know it's you know the creep of space in general but I don't see a future so much for a lot of

Utility tokens outside of the ones I'm you know i mentioned to you some of the ones i like i like chain-link like i'd like to – yeah – as well – is very interesting there was one of the few that really sticks to peer-to-peer

Digital cache and has been really expanding and stuff you know this offensive you know emerging markets so i like a lot of it i like a diverse range of approaches none of them are perfect to me and none of them are focusing on

The most demonic focusing on the same exact what matters in the end of the day though nick is that you're looking at a use case as a primary point of of value when you start to explore the possibility of any of these

Presentations or any of the white papers or any of the teams that come to you and i think that's what we need more of these people who are geared in that way of thinking beyond prospects of immediate returns beyond

The prospects of the short-term she'll so full credit to you and I I am certainly aware from all the main discussions we've had that there's no guarantee with any of this but the thing is we're willing to put those blockchain

Bits on technology you know and willing to you know literally support what the best we can to the best of our knowledge what could potentially emerge as something beyond the plethora of BS in this space and and sort of vacuous shell

Entities and companies that really have no intention of being anything more than profit from making machines absolutely yeah I think there's you know again there's a lot of crap and noise in this space and it's been around for a while

And I think it'll continue to fester just like it does with any new emerging technology there's always those who come in for the quick buck and a lot of those people sadly will lose out and stuff because sometimes their average everyday

People but honestly if you're in if you're in this space for the right reasons you're in it for the long game I think there's a lot of opportunities to not only benefit for yourself but to help others and that's I think anyone

Here is here for the right reasons they're here to help others in that case so makes me feel confident if there's going to be value in the space that there is that utility I think that we're going to be the forefront of building

That utility and play like a big role in it well Nick I couldn't have said that better myself to end this conversation it's been so fascinating I know it's been long all this thing you have

Survived it's been a privilege speaking data – he is super well known in this space and the reason is because of the respect he commands when it comes to being real and being so focused on the technology in the potential what this

Can do Nick one of the big things you sent forth in this message today is that you're bullish on technology you know you're bullish on the possibilities of where we can see crypto and blockchain really start to change the narrative for

What we can do with it – essentially enfranchise change whether that be socioeconomic whether that be socio-political whether that be socio socio cultural the point is that it's all about trying to enable betterment

For our all of us as participants for the future when it comes to money when it comes to business and when it comes to the possibilities of how we can have more autonomy and then you've always been a supporter of that if you made it

Clear that long way to go there's perhaps a lot of people in the space that don't feel the same way and they were focused on solely their economic position but over time I think both of you could up both of us

Agree we want to make sure that the the narrative shifts to be tech with network effects together to really prove potential Braddock an asset a motor myself and then along with those well I say all the same back to you in the

Sense of the positive comments you made earlier it's a pleasure to be friends with you and be here on your channel on have oh it's probably been a really good long solid conversation stuff but it's always worth it always makes it worth it

Well Nick my thanks so much your time and hopefully everyone else they've just had a bit of an insight into BTC and some of the ramblings you know between but again beyond the friendship there is that collegial respect and hopefully

It's been of value to some others as well absolutely I have no doubt that people enjoyed the conversation thank you guys for as well listening to me ramble on alongside Brian stuff we always enjoyed doing it I'm assuming

Thanks might and will cash out really soon awesome sounds good

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