Cryptocurrency Taxes 2020 Made Easy? ( Interview)

by birtanpublished on September 15, 2020

Ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the channel today we have EJ from coin tracker we're gonna talk about the crypto tax product they put together and how it compares to some of the other ones on the market so EJ welcome to channel please

Introduce yourself to the lovely folks of YouTube awesome thank you for having me my name is EJ I lead growth in community here at coin tracker and before we get into anything I wanted to have a quick disclaimer that I am NOT an

Accountant and this is not financial advice if you do have tax questions please reach out to a CPA or certified tax professional if you don't know any come to us and we'll help pair you with someone

Absolutely and guys at any point during this video if you have questions that come up that you would like answered I can pass those along to EJ and his team to through the YouTube comments below I'll collect them all and send them

Along to see we can get some easy answers for them so please do leave those in the comments so I think the natural first place to start is to ask you what coin tracker is all about and how you guys start in where you're based

Absolutely it's a good question what is a coin tracker because there's a lot of going this track that all this sort of stuff go out it yeah so I can go a little bit into the backstory of coin trackers so coin tracker was started a

Few years back by John Lerner and Sean download huh so chundan they're both working at Google at the time and Don was a PM at Google after he graduated from Harvard he started on Google search then moved his way to Google add to

Android and ultimately worked on project loon sort of in Google's moonshot Factory Google X working on internet balloons creating sort of like a tethered network around the world for internet access and John John came from

University of Waterloo where he started working on text now which he built to be a pretty large company it still exists today he's still somewhat involved then found his way at Google if I'm his wait at Google where he met Sean Don and

Together they really wanted to work on tackling sort of the next wave of financial infrastructure they had some difficulties when they were trying to transfer money between their bank accounts and they realize how antiquated

Sort of legacy financial technology was and they saw cryptocurrency is a really good way to sort of jump ahead several light-years in terms of financial infrastructure so they got to work and they pitched an

Idea to YC to build a coin tracker now at the time this was a couple years ago there were no good portfolio tracking apps block folio sort of had you manually entering in transactions which was really cumbersome and so they

Started building a coin tracker in ycs I believe it was spring 2018 program or cohort so he started building coin tracker then and then basically towards the end of the the session tax time was coming up and it was 2018 so all the

2017 trades were coming up and it was really just a nightmare John had created this Google sheath or the spreadsheet that was you know tens of thousands of rows long yeah but most different information these crazy formulas

Involved depending on what the currency was and what the transaction type was he's like there's got to be a better way to do this you know this is all digitally native this all online there's api's for everything here like why am I

Looking at rows and a spreadsheet why am I looking at a CSV yeah and so he kind of was just like you know waxing and waning and talking to all his friends and kind of ranting about like oh this is horrible how does anybody do this and

They all kind of agreed and one of them was like you know like if you can solve my crypto taxes hey hey you're working on crypto you've got portfolio tracker if you can sell my taxes I'll give you 500 bucks somebody else in the

Conversation was like 500 bucks no no I'll do it for $1,000 like this is taking up too much time out of my day I don't want to think about this and somebody kind of walking by here is this more like $1,000 I'll give you 2 grand

Like this is such a nuisance like I don't want to deal with this thousand dollars so I don't have to go to go to jail I don't want to do you like to deal with it yeah I don't have to think about it right exactly and so basically from

The first minute there was product market fit they're like okay I guess there's something here and within two weeks they were able to build sort of a prototype which they then presented on demo day for YC there we a believe this

This demo of our tax software to raise money from Alexis Ohanian the founder of Reddit Gary Tanev initialised Serena Williams and a few other angel investors in the crypto space and since then we've raised a seed round because

We've been profitable and had strong product market fit awesome awesome so obviously Genesis of the product comes from you know folks who are very familiar with software and what it takes to build

Software so obviously that's a good thing to see not just for protocol projects but also for the ever important projects that help people make sense of what crypto is doing and to take care of their taxes right now for me personally

I've been doing some some deep dives into crypto tax software lately because I – while I'm not a traitor and I don't do a lot of volume even the small amount of you know trades that I do here and there throughout a year become extremely

Painful to evaluate a tax time and to create a strategy for years to come because I think people don't realize often until you know they're in it that tax strategy comes into play not just for the year you're in but also things

You've done prior and the future things that you could do right so and again if you know no financial advice here just telling you something to think about so in terms of the feature set that coin tracker has can you give some some of

The key features what can you expect as a user for coin tracker absolutely and I definitely want to tackle that point of you mentioned of like the decisions we make today have repercussions down the line so people really have to think long

Term especially becomes the tax you're dealing with a body that is almost 300 years old and like this is this is the revenue of the United States like they're not gonna compromise on that stuff but when it comes to coin tracker

One of the key ways that we differentiate ourselves I guess starts with how we've built the company here a very engineering first company so all the different crypto tax software's we are the most engineering dominant you

Know Shaun Don and John are both engineers so both engineer founders as opposed to other players in the space who come from a marketing and sales background or a pure tax background or a design

Background so we build ourselves around having really good tech at the first level with that if you can as you can imagine we have really strong integrations with all the api's exchanges and wallets we really try to

Eat everywhere that the user is going to be and pride ourselves on simplicity we also have the ability to move really quickly so whenever the community requests a new tool or a new exchange we're pretty we're able to Eider it

Pretty quickly it's a matter of days or weeks rather than months or years when it comes to coin track so you can think of like defy and sort of margin trading and futures and all the different lending we're able to integrate with

Those platforms and those are all those different methods additionally we also have a free tier which no other sort of cryptocurrency tax software offers we believe it's really important for people to be crypto compliant and I'd argue

About like 80 90 percent of users meet our free tier so money that we're not making we just think that people should be tax compliant because this has such long-term repercussions finally I'll add that we we sort of talked to the

Governing bodies a lot to learn what tax implications are coming down the pipes since this stuff is so nascent the IRS hasn't been able to really give concrete answers on anything so it really helps to be able to talk to the folks at the

IRS and how they're thinking about things so we can sort of tell you hey you know like none of this is actual tax guidance this is just our best guess of how it's actually gonna roll out and we actually work that into our product

Additionally when we do have an issue with your taxes so say something doesn't exactly look right like we think there's a transfer but we can't really find the other side of it or just a transaction ends up in a negative balance we'll eat

All of those we'll tell you about all the issues that we see with your report any transactions that could cause any trouble so you can address those rather than file with something that you think is complete but then the IRS comes back

Two years later and says hey tell me about this transaction that you didn't twenty thirteen yeah absolutely and I think too that even if you're someone that might not have done any real trading in crypto this year and there

Are plenty of people in the space that haven't done a lot of trading there they've been you know holding long term or they've you know they've divested in 2018 and now they're just kind of holding on to things that they've had

For for years and years it's good to be able to import what you've had for the lifetime of your involvement in crypto so you can calculate you know previous tax here's I mean if you think about it I know for a fact that there are

Hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of people that have had crypto for a long time and did not know how to treat it tax wise so they just didn't treat it at all in their taxes and so now they can go back

Armed with some information to create a consistent strategy that's gonna work out for them you know tax time minimize your your liability maybe using a tool like this right so that's that's pretty cool and so you spoke about the free

Tier you know for your software what is that free tier get you as a user and and then what are the what's the pricing for the you know the upgrades and what does that get you yeah absolutely so wouldn't when I come to

The free tier we will handle your tax reports for up to 200 transactions so that's basically a user who's doing a transaction every other day at least I know personally for myself like I didn't have over 200 transactions in 2019

Additionally we'll handle all your tax reports we'll create your turbo tax and Tax Act file if you want to file through an accountant you can share your dashboard with them they can see all your forms will generate your eight nine

Four nine I'm gonna spit out some numbers here but they're not gonna mean much but basically they're your tax forms now let's say you're more complex user you trade more than two hundred times a year or you are involved in defy

Or margin trading so like complex more complex tax profile that's when you have to pay for four features so it'll jump up to 179 for our traitor tier which is three thousand transactions in a year so roughly two to three transactions a day

Or rather no ten just about ten transactions a day and that'll give us just a margin trading D five priority support most importantly at least for me I think is a really big one the tax loss harvesting dashboard so there's a lot of

Tax benefits that people can but people that we help people out with in the crypto space group does really attractive from accruing a tax loss and point so you can really offset your tax taxable amount at least personally

Actually I don't know if I should speak personally but in the case of some of our users I've seen them save thousands of dollars using our tax pump tools and so that's sort of like pays for the tool itself and for someone that that may not

Know what tax loss harvesting is I can start you can feel free to sprinkle in you know a tool like we'll give you an idea of any specific crypto assets that you have that are currently valued in a place where if you

Were to make a sale and you were to trade and convert to cash that would create a loss capital loss so it offset against other capital gains or income you know what happens so it's a good way to to track down opportunities to to

Reduce your overall tax liability at the end of day yeah I think in the technical terms of like of the way we think of it in space it's basically one that when your cost basis in an asset in a position so basically what part ofour is

Higher than what the market value is so say if I bought pickup in 4,000 and it's currently worth 5,000 I can harvest that loss and the really nice thing about crypto that you typically can't do in securities which is like stocks or bonds

Things like that in traditional investing you have something called a 30-day wash sale rule which basically says that if I own 10 shares of Apple and I'm underwater in those I want to I want to harvest a loss for the year I

Can sell it but I have to wait 30 days to buy it back so that 30-day no creates some uncertainty which keeps people from doing it incorrect that does that that only applies to securities and things

Like acqu in which the IRS has clearly said like first Bitcoin is not a secure yes a Bitcoin you can literally give you're underwater you can sell it and buy right back maintain the exact same position but you can crew a loss so like

You can basically put it on your tax form say like oh I lost X amount of money money back on your tax refund absolutely so if you're you know again not tax advice but if you're a long term a long term Bitcoin holder for example

And you think I'm gonna hold this long term but you're in a place where you're you go in your dashboard for tax loss harvesting you say hey I've got some opportunity here to accrue a loss you can do that and then immediately turn

Around and buy back for the same price now you have a new cost basis to start running from so fun fact fun tip pretty cool so that's pretty interesting I would say that that is very different having a pretty robust free tier I think

A lot of software's as soon as you start to try and get your forms generated that's when people start to pay well I think there maybe you've used one or two softwares where they let you bring in a certain

Like a few transactions to see how the features work you can figure out if you want to use it and that's humane but it's very interesting you know 200 transactions will accommodate I would say a fair number of people that aren't

That aren't traders for sure yeah absolutely and especially this year where the IRS is actually adding a crypto question on tax forms like we think it's imperative that people start being tax compliant now also it maybe

Starts with 200 transactions but we work with users who have millions of transactions so we can really scale and grow with you as your crypto history as your portfolio grows so and I think our highest here is currently $500 I may

Have to check on that but it's really not that expensive when you consider all the different features are getting as well as all of the benefits and when it comes to sort of the IRS we think is really important that people file

Obviously and I work tax compliant but if that's not a compelling argument for you which for many people it isn't the statute of limitations for the IRS are pretty compelling if you file everything properly so if you're using a good tax

Software like us and you know filing with an accountant or TurboTax typically the statute of limitations so the look-back period that the IRS can use to audit you is three years right if you do all that but you grossly miss state your

Income like say I make say I make a million dollars in a year but I'm only reporting 50 grand on my taxes then they can go back actually that's technically fraud yes grossly misleading my my income they can go back six years

Instead of three years now in the case of fraud or not filing at all which is what a lot of people in crypto have been doing just not filing they can look back forever so right we're really telling people to like get the ball rolling just

Like you know file or tax reports paste something in taxes or just file something so you can start the statute of limitations and really protect yourself rather than be you know thirty years from now and then it'll be twenty

Fifty and you'll you won't even know what you had for breakfast but then the IRS will be asking you hey what were you doing in 2017 what were you doing in 2020 yeah yeah and that's the I think that's the scary thing

For a lot of people is whether or not you you liked the lack of clarity or you like the policy approach that we've had so far towards crypto you have to do in my opinion the best thing you can to protect yourself because it's not worth

The the liability of penalty that you can you can face for especially for people that may be you know made a few hundred bucks on crypto it's not worth you know just not bothering and not doing it today you know it potentially

Opens you up to a whole a whole larger world of pain if nothing else the time it takes to deal with the repercussions of that so yeah absolutely so moving it back though to coin tracker and your your specific offering I know you

Mentioned defy and some of these other like margin trading some other things that are more advanced and are more niche I think is that one of the only premium or you know paid user benefits or there are others that that folks that

End up paying would get over a free tier user for example definitely so yeah it's it's a defying margin trading lending sort of like the more complex things going on in crypto right now but additionally they get priority support

So we don't deny anybody our chat support but granted you can imagine it's pretty busy right now so it's like if you are a free customer it's probably gonna take us longer to get back to you than if you are a priority customer who

Has a million trades and transact really heavily with us in the year so you get priority support by by moving up to a paid plan you'll get access to that tax loss harvesting dashboard which will let you basically minimize your taxes for

Upcoming for future tax years free users get the exact same cost basis methods as paid users so it's not like you only get five oh no we're giving you FIFO LIFO – all the different ways that you can live that jazz exactly although other than

That we give you access to I believe sort of like a tax implications dashboard so if I were to model at rates like say if I wanted to dump one of my positions I want to know what that's gonna look like on my taxes I believe

That's even actually accessible to free users in some some capacity you can just create a transaction and preview it on our machine but really really it's just its transactions its complex defined crypto stuff and

Priority support that you're paying for gotcha yeah and I think that makes sense as a as an offering and clearly the incentives are aligned for users to just give it a try and just try and

Understand how taxes work in this case you know at least this is something that I've heard from people that I've spoken to about crypto taxes and there's no policy here yet but you mentioned FIFO LIFO – all of these different accounting

Methods for for crypto transactions and I would say on average most people would not think about this at all but that's something that I think is a huge benefit even if you're not going to use a crypto tax software long term pull your trades

In to understand how high fo LIFO FIFO all those things look for you you know to see what might make sense the most for for your specific situation because I think consistency is key you want to pick one and then continue on with that

One for for perpetuity right look you know you got it so I think that that's another another big feature and if that's not behind a paywall it's it's really helpful for people to just at least understand the implications of

Those different accounting methods for them both retro actively and future forward you know future looking absolutely yeah we completely agree I think I'm probably a gross and misquote somebody but I believe one of the

Founding fathers may have been in Franklin said every citizen has the obligation to pay taxes but they also have the obligation to minimize their tax burden as much as possible basically means like eight you should pay taxes

It's for the good of everyone but you should be as little in taxes as you can possible as you can't possibly so by giving people access to all these different cost basis methods we let them we give them the agency to choose what's

Right for them and yeah certainly pick one and stick to it while you technically can switch cost base every year if anything ever happens it's gonna be leave a really long paper trail and be really difficult to defend

So yeah certainly pick what's right for you stick with it for sure for sure so then again I also wanted to take a stab at another question and if this this could obviously go into a more technical realm

So we can you know start shallow and then go deeper I think an important thing that doesn't get talked about in a lot of the content out there about crypto tax software and I have also been guilty of this not asking the right

Questions but what is the posture towards information security when it comes to these things because I think a big you know even though people are filing taxes and you're essentially giving up information about your wallets

And such by doing so yeah obviously when that stuff associated with your name and your trigger your everything everything related to your public keys is in there in a RAW format like it would be in your software how are you guys approaching

Protecting that information and making sure people's stuff get stays secure absolutely so Trust is definitely at the center of our relationship with our customers and we do and a lot of our sort of like partnership socials with

Coinbase like they have very high standards for data integrity now when it comes to that stuff the beauty of is that we don't actually ask for your right access API keys so we can't actually change any of the transaction

Information on your accounts we can't create new trades we can't move your funds we're looking for view access but you know there's still some there's still some exposure when it comes to that stuff and we're fortunate in that

The risk vector is pretty small because since we're not custody your assets we don't have access to to move them people aren't as interested in we're not as attractive as a target as other exchanges might be a certain Lee when it

Comes to keeping sort of your privacy in mind all we ever ask for is your email address we don't ask for your phone number we don't ask for your name Social Security tax ID location we'll know what country you're in by the tax reports you

Choose which is you know you can you can file with us through you the US Canada UK and Australia and we have folks in over 145 countries that use us regardless even if we perfectly match their tax situation but

We don't ask for PII or personally identifiable information other than your email address got it okay yeah and I think that that's that's a key thing to note so I'm gonna just based on the information you just told me I'm gonna

Recommend to folks if you sign up for coin tracker create a separate email – just just to protect you're out you're off SEC right yep create a separate email that's separate from all your identity use that to get your reports

Generated to import all your stuff and then run from there right so you don't have to open yourself up to potential for somebody to match your public keys with your name you don't have to do it so why not protect yourself right and as

Another user you always use an obviously strong password use a different every time use a password manager like it makes it a lot easier I'd rather I don't have a piece of paper floating around with all my different nations but new

Email or a different email address which you can even have forward to your existing email address and a strong password strong unique password you're you're golden you're ahead of 99.99% of the pack totally with you and I'm gonna

Throw a shameless plug in here actually released a video today and it's Tuesday the 18th of February 8th a unique and strong password all that jazz so I'll link it up here you guys to watch but you know again when it comes to taxes

For people in crypto I think that a big challenge is first of all understanding what policy is today and then trying to contextualize what you're seeing on that dashboard once you've imported your transactions to figure out what to do

From there and I'm just curious what your posture is a coin tracker in terms of educating the user what type of documentation and availability of people and support that have that that accounting and tax knowledge that can

Share you know at least preliminary non-binding advice with folks absolutely so when it comes to like our tax expertise I would defer to Shahan our head of tax strategy who really does is sort of like spear

All this he leads several CPE courses or basically kind of like on medicine or in law you have to take a certain amount of credits every year to stay accredited and ensure that you keep your certification a CPE is what CPAs do he

Leads several courses a week on Herpa currency taxes so he's out there educating the accountants in a lot of cases the people you're dealing with on how to work their currencies beyond that he is a contributor for for both Forbes

And Bloomberg crypto so he's writing about this stuff a day in and day out when he's not doing that he has strong connections with the IRS and sort of talking to them about how they're thinking about cryptocurrency tax and we

Keep a direct line of communication with them so we can sort of be in the loop with anything that's coming up and then we will relay all of our customers that so we send email blasts every time we have new blog posts and typically we

Have a lot of blog content about taxes we try to distill it to the sort of easiest way to understand because tax stuff pretty boring and or just really you know it's not it's not fun stuff to read and there's only so much you need

To know so we'll distill that information up for the user when it comes to somebody asking us a direct question about taxes I've actually been really impressed with that here we've been really versatile

And we in my in the time that I've been here a bunch of users have come through and either had issues with like CP 2000 notices from the IRS which is basically when the IRS starts coming after you for money when they're like hey we sent you

A notice that you didn't file your taxes correctly we've had we've worked with several users in those cases one most notably actually ended up with a tax return so the IRS is like hey you owe us money and he flipped it on them he's

Like no you owe me money after coming to us so that was pretty fun and we can we help users generate letters will help pair them with the right CPAs and tax professionals in their area and in the case of one-off questions we'll even

Just answer them or if it's a question that we don't know the answer to we'll figure it out because it's our job to know that stuff that's awesome yeah and I think people sometimes might question well you know pedigrees only so much it

Only goes so far it's only one person but I think for this specific issue of cryptocurrency taxation to have folks that are interfacing with the policymakers and the people talking

About this stuff and enforcement as well as someone who is teaching other accountants about this is pretty helpful because at least you know there'll be some continuity between all the different sources right because you know

I haven't I have an accountant now that I use for this stuff because it's now gotten to the point where I don't have time or patience to deal with it by myself and anytime I have questions about crypto this is where I go to what

Its resource like like a coin tracker to say I need something to pass to my my CPA didn't yell them how to treat this because not all CPAs know how to how to deal with cryptocurrency effectively yeah so absolutely and we know and we

Don't expect them to it's like it's all very nascent like this time laughs like like defy is only a couple years old and like the taxation around it is really complicated depending on which protocol you're using and like well specialize in

That will write up all the content but I really don't expect my 65 year old accountant who lives in Florida to understand this stuff so right yeah it's it's really new and and especially to your point with defy I think that's

That's a pretty unique feature to some of these software's like yours where that's starting to get integrated into the equation because this is not everything now is a trade you've got interest earning products you've got you

Know loans against crypto like collateralized loans non collateralized loans and all sorts of things that you know would baffle me in terms of looking at my tax liability regarding those things so super helpful so for a user

That is trying to figure out aid do I qualify for free tier or do I not because I feel like most people wouldn't know what their transaction numbers are for the year how would they go about signing up and then how do you guys deal

With importing transactions and letting people know hey you're about to run over a plan absolutely so you can import as many transactions as you like it's not like we'll put a barrier and say sorry you used up your limit so what we

Recommend is that users come to us they sign up which is always free and start importing transactions if you use them some of the major exchanges like coinbase our coinbase integration is really shiny

It's simple you can even single sign-on through coinbase and we'll take care of it for you otherwise you can either import your API keys so read access API keys to your major exchanges as well as CSVs if we

Don't support by any chance an exchange that you like or an exchange is now defunct like crypto Pia you can load a CSV of those transactions and when it comes to actually figure out how many transactions you've had in a year all

You need to do is navigate to your tax dashboard which is at the top of our page and we'll tell you explicitly for a taxi or how many transactions you have and transactions don't necessarily correlate with orders like I may play

Place a buy order for $10,000 worth of Bitcoin but that will probably ask execute over several different trades those numbers those individual trades each have separate cost basis because you're not getting it all at the same

Price those constitute multiple transactions got it okay so yeah specific identification is another aspect of it because you talk about things like Bitcoin that use you know unspent transaction outputs each of

Those outputs is gonna have its own unique basis right so that's interesting great point so the last question in this same vein is if I'm a user that has let's just say 400 transactions all tall time 2016 2017 and then through 2018 and

2019 is your pricing based on their lifetime transaction count or per annum its per annum but so you need about 400 transactions lifetime assuming it's like it's 50 50 50 like every year distributed as long as you're under $200

Will generate all your tax years for free if one year you had you know 300 transactions then you have to pay for a higher tier but the nice thing about that is it's not sort of like a one-and-done like you get it once you

Have 14 days to run your report and that's it no we'll keep running those reports in perpetuity as many different ways as you'd like so in ten years from now if you want to rerun all your reports but

You paid for them a while ago we will do it you want to choose a different cost basis we'll do it like will will take care of all that stuff using the right forms so you pay once per year and then you're good for life excellent excellent

And I would and I would recommend for folks that do sign up and I think it would be worth it for you guys to sign up if you're watching and at least check it out see if it's for you just to run a couple reports and different accounting

Mechanisms you send that off to your accountant or compare them yourself just to see you know compare and contrast and see how they look giving options if especially if you haven't made a determination yet is

Always good secondarily I'm curious what your approach to monetization is or why you've decided not to monetize it at a free tier absolutely so I think we're really fortunate to be in the position we're in where we have a strong product

Market fit people are really loyal to us they tend to stay with us year after year and we have a very long term view when it comes to the space we're not coming we're not looking to make a quick buck we think we really do think and I

Think everybody here is on board when I see that crypto is gonna be very big it's the new financial paradigm and so we really just want to position ourselves to be able to grow with that ecosystem and I think we close ourselves

Out a lot if we're looking to just make money immediately and we're fortunate in that a lot of customers do pay us to create this solution for us for them and we have even more customers who want to tip us in Bitcoin or they want to pay

For premium portfolio tracking tools that will likely release at some point in the future but when it comes to MIT the free tier ends up being a really good way to start having the conversations about tax and it starts

Sort of lowers the barrier for people to be scared of crypto and start transacting and so it's really us putting our money where our mouth is and saying hey this is infrastructure that the world needs if we want crypto to be

As big and as open as we want it to be so we're willing to forego a few bucks to really help it achieve its full potential fair enough I'm totally I'm totally on board with that type of mission certainly certainly so speaking

Of that I think the last place that I wanted to go on be mindful of folks time coming up on 45-minute mark is you alluded to briefly some portfolio tracking features and other things that might be introduced in the future where

Are you guys going from here what's the road map at least what can you share with me about where you're going from 2020 and I work with coin tracker yeah so I'm not sure how much um I can say because you know every everything is

Bound to change certainly yeah we're all obviously we're a private company and I'm not the one actually writing the code and implementing all these changes right but really is succinctly I can say that short term were really focused on

Sort of just being the best at crypto tax and there's like there's a lot that comes with that and just like not only getting the tax implications right but having this most robust product and just a zero percent downtime we want to win a

Tax it's a really difficult problem but it sets the right incentive structure where we have to integrate with every different exchange every different wallet and sort of meet the user where they're at so by winning at tax not only

Do we get these really nice fancy integrations but we also when the users trust and I think once we have the users trust sort of like the world is endless I think you and I can both agree that we think cryptos may be a sort of this open

Financial paradigm yeah but the way that it's kind of turned out it hasn't really been because how hard is it to move your funds from coin base to by Nantz or to any different wallet and sort of you really start to see the limitations of

The system it's it's like walled gardens right looks like the only because this beautiful castle and there's all this stuff going on inside of it it's great but the second that you want to get outside of it or do something in

Finances ecosystem or Krakens crafting whatever Krakens got going on it's really difficult and so you actually end up creating this open financial network with a lot of walls and it happens a lot in the project ecosystem as well where

Defy protocols want to lock you into their place because they and that's more money for their pools and it's never like completely counter the ethos of the space like what we think is gonna build and so I

Think tax positions us not only to win the users trust to build this really nice integration but really help facilitate the the flow of information the flow of this open finance Network so I don't want to get into soda what those

Products would look like but if you can imagine what it looks like when you're truly integrated with all the different crypto protocols and projects and exchanges and wallets you can really start to have information throughput and

Build really cool solutions on top of it fantastic I I'm with you on that and I also think that moving into being in a place where you're building software that is not a protocol that is not a lending platform or you know I think a

Lot of defy products started out as you know consumers or users of a protocol and then shifted to maybe they want to build their own protocol or their own cryptocurrency their you know whatever yeah and be in a position where you are

A software that's really you know parallel but still tangential from from crypto like you guys are it gives you the opportunity to build stuff that makes this new technology easier to to deal with in your everyday life so I can

Totally get behind that mission absolutely and we're really fortunate to be in a position where we get to be democratic where we don't have to be political you know if someone thinks something is

A coin or something that's not worth investing in like that's fine that's for the community to decide if the community wants an asset or keeps asking for support for some exchange like we will offer it because it's what

The community wants it's not like we have to draw a line in the sand and have to be political so we get to be you have to we let the users decide what actually gets built I think that makes it a lot easier for a wider variety of people to

Use it if they don't have to stress about compatibility and all that stuff yeah yeah so thanks very much EJ for joining I want to give you an opportunity to to close out and give any closing thoughts that you had if you

Have any but I really really do appreciate you talking about coin tracker on the channel awesome absolutely and we're happy to sort of give you a link sort of and if you link unlock 10% off for your users and

Make it easier for them if they have to pay for a plan to work with coin tracker as I mentioned we're free up to 200 transactions and we'll cover 90% of people's use cases with that stuff and that doesn't meet your meet your needs

We have solutions for you and we work with users we even day trade or hedge funds and people who really have high volume so we see we spanned the entire gamut if there's anything that people want we can they can request either

Through our forum or a chat support or even on Twitter we're really vocal on Twitter and try to reach people there so yeah that's sort of I think most of coin tracker has been covered in in the last 45 minutes awesome all that that is my

Job and my goal and hopefully guys if you you're in the market for a crypto tack software you might be able to get it done for free this year go and give coin track or a trial leave the link down below I'm like EJ said if

You do have to pay for a plan but fingers crossed you don't you can get 10% off using that link and it's always appreciated so with that EJ I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day my friend and

Thanks for being on yeah thanks for having us awesome cheers everybody

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