Constellation Team | BlockchainBrad | Blockchain Tech for Big Data | Scalable Interoperability

by birtanpublished on September 23, 2020

hello it's Brad Laurie or blockchain Brad and today I'm speaking with constellation once again today is a very formal and specific update on all things business-related for them today I have two core members of the team we have

None other than the well-known Benjamin Jorgenson a co-founder of the setup itself and we also have Benjamin Biggles is key when it comes to business development gentlemen thank you very much for your time today thanks Brad

Sprout excited to be here good man likewise mate now today it's all about the beers it's all about making sure that we understand the nature of announcements or proposals of business potential for constellation and we're

Going to dig a little bit more into the tech to start off with so guys let's start off with a bit of an understanding of what constellation is for those who really need to understand why you exist what your core purpose is and what's to

Come who would you like to take that bread you want me to jump in I think for the intro maybe you take that Ben because just paint a picture before we dig deep into the business side with Benjamin giggles yeah so constellation

We kind of defined ourselves as the blockchain for Big Data but what we've really built as a directed acyclic graph or a dag that allows us for high throughput and scalability where constellations really focused our

Attention is around building the spore platform which our developer tools that plug into existing applications and onboard external data sets onto our own distributed ledger and so what we've really focused on for enterprise clients

And reaching out to mass developer adoption is really around data validation focusing on downstream data pipelines security so that you have improved upstream data analytics right now Ben we've spoken several times in

The past and to paint a picture for what's now emerging and that is that business potential and commerce commercialization we need to know that the tech and the integrity of it and the abilities of abbott an approve ability

Is there you've been building this with the team for some time now well over a year are you confident that you have that fundamental platform that technological premise that can do what we're talking about today which is the

Business side and the commercialization side yeah I think there is a lot of skepticism at first I've seen this team come together having a lot of Silicon Valley experience working primarily in the SAS space and having kind of that

Enterprise business the business dynamic and as the core of constellation and what's exciting is that we've we've kind of made that attempt we've always articulated that attempt to bridge the gap blockchain world and research and

Applying it to real-world scenarios so over the past couple years we were actually pretty quiet as we did a lot of research and understanding what existing technologies are out in the space where did they fall short and how can we

Improve beyond just sandboxing test environments and POCs and actually look at scalable and meaningful solutions out there Rob and going popping back to those fundamentals of the ledger itself are you confident that you are well and

Truly in that race to emerge as you know a significant startup as a significant DLT technology when it comes to scalability decentralization and all the other components that really afford for a competitive distributed ledger system

And also you know a technology that can really be adopted in a very seamless way yeah I mean I think we're really posed to be one of the the major champions that come out of this space not only in kind of been our DNA as a team and where

Our backgrounds come from but also kind of in the way that we approach sales and marketing and how we built out our organization to accommodate traditional methodologies around understanding customer lifecycle journeys and applying

That with a very technologically heavy industry such as blockchain in bridge that gap Rob so I propose to to do more than just structure lightweight partnerships on hypothetical claims and actually start

To put the word started to get the rubber to meet the road if you write at night that's exactly why we here today obviously I've spoken at length with some of your other colleagues in the constellation team Wyatt specifically

He's really leading out the technological savvy that you know really enabling that code to be meaningful but today having another guests from your team with Benjamin giggles here it's all about trying to not only bridge the gap

But showcase the emergence of business and commercial value for constellation so let's do that mate let's explore this I want to start off with a permissioned versus permissionless narrative or suggests the idea that perhaps then some

May be missing the mark when it comes to constellation because in fact it doesn't seem to be that at all it seems to be that you're actually valuing and valorizing both sides of this crypto conversation yeah absolutely I mean you

Know look when I got into this phase for me to to leave Oracle I had this great job and I was I wanted to sniff test this team out of course I trust Ben Jorgenson but I had a chance to meet Wyatt early on because I'm not in the

Business in my career of making vapor we're shipping vapor where I want to make sure that there was actually a business case here and so what I realized very early on is that there is a real lack of understanding in the

Market you know we may meet with an enterprise customer and they have a guy that's their VP of blockchain or head of blockchain and they asked really kind of fundamental questions that they don't know the answer to that's kind of a red

Flag that they may have promoted that person a little too quickly and so in realizing that these enterprise customers are kind of a little bit scared of decentralization I mean that's a loss of power in their

Eyes you know them the feeling of consolidation is extremely important of knowing that they have control of that fiefdom and that's really the way Silicon Valley has been rewarded for the longest time is the consolidation

Efforts especially working at Oracle it was a rat race in the partner ecosystem of folks trying to get you know swallowed up by these these large entities and and it just sort of jump in there for a

Moment just a base on that looking keep going but in the sense of decentralization I want to clarify a few things with you on your feedback but is it fair to say that it's about technological decentralization in terms

Of mechanisms that live beneath entities beneath startups been these companies and enterprises I ask you this because you know from your perspective and with your background in Oracle is it fair to say that it's not always about the

Decentralisation of you know the flow of tokens for example or the flow of money and power but more so it's about enabling even centralized parties to better their business through decentralized means

Yeah absolutely I mean decentralization and distributed networks aren't unique to blockchain I mean this is stuff that predates blockchain and there's been a lot of different exploratory measures and looking at ways to decentralize

Workflow but at the end of the day when you're talking what you just mentioned about you know crypto and tokens and all that I mean at the bottom of it all it's data that's the big conversation here and that's you know everybody can

Obfuscate and add layers and talk about you know validation mechanisms and so forth but at the core of that we're talking data and for an enterprise to relinquish control of their data in a way that has to you know you know have

Trust of somebody else handling it that becomes a really dicey situation not to say that there aren't groups out there that have leaned in very hard seeing that this is the future they can see the writing on the wall but I would largely

Say the vast majority is scared about decentralization as a whole right very well said so in that context Ben or Benjamin just so we can separate the two well I'll use the long name for you benjamin diggle's now with regard to the

Potentials for permission systems obviously there's a bit of a narrative a narrative out there that tries to counter the value of permissions and enterprise centric systems but what's your take on this for constellation

Specifically and what's the role that you play in trying to engage some of these businesses that support this permissions narrative yeah yeah I mean I think it's super smart and the when you think about betting the farm

And putting all your data on a public ledger no one's gonna be the first in line to do that I mean and so then there's all this pushback especially from kind of the VP of engineering type personas out there that are saying if

It's a permission system then it's really nothing more than an expensive slow database you know so why are we exploring this and they constantly start attacking the concept but those folks don't have the vision or the foresight

To play the movie forward and see that you have to start testing this stuff to start looking at hey how do we start to hybrid some of this start with the permission system and then maybe we start taking a subset of our data and

Using a permissionless system to manage that through an API call you know giving us an opportunity to start to flay out to some hybrid models to pave the path towards that public ledger model because we're just not there right exactly now

In that context with the dag as well that's the fundamental ledger system that you've built in for that as a technological core are you confident that you can see this sort of symbiosis or this intractable connection between

The permission and permissionless forms emerge to really showcase that not only can be done but perhaps needs to be done to really showcase the the benefits of blockchain look I'll tell you what early on I was very anti crypto mr. jorgensen

Will tell you that all the way I just was like if I hear the word crypto one more time that's not what this is about this is about the technology no business is talking about crypto tokens but then I switch and I turned a corner as they

Said taking the red pill that crypto is gonna be what unlocks this in the future I mean that is truly gonna be the magic key to allowing utility on these networks it takes a lot of Education to kind of explain that utility model you

Know right now you may be paying Google cloud for a cloud hosting resources and so forth or any kind of computational throughput but imagine with microtransactions you can actually take care of that by tokenizing throughput

With crypto and and that makes these very interesting when you start thinking about you know autonomous machines that are exchanging value with one another in a decentralized way that's really exciting but that said people are

Still very kind of having a hard time wrapping their mind around the internet of value this connected ecosystem where things are exchanging using microtransactions where crypto really is the power of

Utility that brings these public networks to life right and sorry go ahead yeah I was just gonna jump in there briefly a lot of what our ethos is as a company is that in the evolution of the

Entire industry was that we thought more about cryptocurrency in terms of Finance of means of financial exchange and when you start and as a financial instrument and when you see that data in itself is the financial instrument and data is

Exchanged in billions of clusters a day in packets a day and that is the the new financial instrument that's exchanged now the conversation is much different absolutely you're looking at permission networks not as a permission financial

Instrument in instrument and isolated Network and looking for interoperability on financial instruments but data as that financial instrument that can be that inner operable but between permission and permissionless networks

And Bennie Acton sorry I have oh that's another place keep going it's all a bit that be Dallas irate no I think I was just kind of hitting the point that that there is a ton of room for educating people and

Walking enterprise customers through not necessarily the financial instrument but data as the instrument in exchange in starting with permission networks and slowly easing people up to the vision that we see around interoperability and

That that exchange mechanism is data right very few done that like Facebook it's true and then it's interesting you're saying this because it's almost like the chicken before the egg in that as you both know and many who follow the

So the the the networks of narratives of crypto itself and the eCos and that's now building it's relatively small as a microcosm but essentially the narratives of money and finance seem to be paramount even now but if you look at

The the trajectory of all technological innovations in history genuinely data becomes paramount very quickly once people start to understand the value of the new systems emerging now do you think perhaps in this sense Ben or

Benjamin that maybe someone really missed the mark when it comes to really understanding that the data is the fundamental asset when we're talking about digital assets for example many people perhaps you know maybe looking at

Crypto for example as a store of value alone or some means of accruing wealth but when it comes to the true nature of these tokenized models is it fair to say that it's really more about integration more about how we exchange literally

Through interoperability measures this data and how we determine and value according to access as well yeah I think Ben hit it with a nail on the head I mean data is gonna be the mechanism of exchange that in my opinion is starting

To quickly become more valuable than money I mean you look kid we play a role in the mobility space but and you look at like a Toyota there are 250 plus billionaire or company you take ten of the leading automobile companies in the

World combined they're a are are Apple still clears them by 250 billion dollars a year I mean so it shows you have one tech company that's bigger than the top ten automotive companies then you take Fang you know Facebook Amazon Apple

Netflix and Google you combine them they're worth more than all the oil companies in the world combined so you're seeing this crazy shift in data 90% of the world's data has been creating the last two to three years I

Mean these are astronomical numbers that is flooding these groups and those that don't understand that they the importance of interoperating the state of the importance of unlocking it and allowing it to move in new ways are

Gonna miss the mark but that's because they're they're stricken with fear again it's the enterprise that's like we don't want anybody else to play with our day in a term that I coined is decentralization forces collaboration

Forces you to kind of let down your guards and start to play nice with those that you would see earlier as maybe mortal enemies you know you got BMW and Daimler that are forming partnerships that's rare and Boeing you know that's a

Big deal and that shows that they have a dedication to seeing that hey we may only be seeing you know very small bit of what's possible but once we start adding in two or three other constituents that are like-minded that

Have unique data that we could benefit from them we can play too well together that's what unlocks a real real possibility for the future right and it's really interesting also here there's discussion about data because

You know for some time now there's been leading speakers in the crypto space talking about the concept of sound money and you know the internet of money but really you know perhaps the narrative needs to really morph into not only that

Consideration but quite literally Internet of data and how that's very valorized in this new emergent technology and in that context so let's explore that specifically the constellation though is let's get right

Into how you're going to prove value utilizes under underlying technology now Benjamin you are as a business in a rep for the team you really are over where of some of these new moves you're making on the crypto chess forward to showcase

Commercial value talk us through this recent announcement that's come forth and so we can explore and the real nature of this yeah absolutely I am absolutely thrilled Jan mentioned that we are under a working contract with the

United States Air Force and it's kind of a big deal for us being an emerging blockchain company it's a testimony to their group in the Department of Defense that sees that these types of technologies could be the key to helping

Them you know operate that data there's a lot of focus on how data is being created how data is being stored and then how data is being queried and shared and so when the group that we're working with within the Air Force is

Called multi-domain command and control it makes sense than that for folks in uneasy ways it's really just domains are almost like business units that live inside the Department of fence that create their own data silence

And these data these data this data is siloed for a very good reason rules of engagement they don't want that data bleeding over to other groups to mess up coms you know there may be security risks however when you have

These legacy systems that are building these towers of data and they need to interoperate that to make quick decisions that is a manual nightmare and they are bleeding in fact we know from the Air Force out of all the issues that

They're struggling with that 20% of the demand is coming from the Department of Defense is around big data Ryan it jumps down second place to maybe operations at like 15 to 12 percent so it shows the impact so we're really excited to be

Working with the Air Force to help them uncover the ways that not only can they interoperate it but really it starts at the beginning which is validating a notarizing data making sure that the stuff that's coming in is known it's not

Crap it's not going to affect the system's downstream so that when it comes to that place of looking at it as an exchange and this is really kind of the holy grail of every company whether they're the Air Force or their BMW is

That data exchange whether that's a monetary monetizing strategy to generate new revenue channels or if it's a way to make quick decisions on the battlefield so project that's why we're excited about this piece right well firstly

Without any suggestion of FOMO or trying to hype this congratulations for getting the contract that was your words not mine and that's not easy to achieve especially when it's a government backed entity and the Air Force's you know

Second to none when it comes to real credible agencies that are backed by the government but I want to explore this in real detail so we get you know clear understanding from your Benjamin about the nature of this once again now you

Mentioned before that you know there are these silos inside the Air Force and each of them you know don't tend to interoperate even within their own ecosystem now if you're tapping into one of them you mentioned that the domain

Structure and also the SBIR that small business relationship can you talk us through what this could mean for the Air Force in terms of not only just you know facilitating in this this multi domains and sort of capacity but really bridging

More of the the benefits of any interoperation between different agents and nodes essentially if we liken the blockchain to this so that there's a better technological conversation happening as

A better you know effect with regard to what the dag can do in concert with better business for the airport yeah absolutely I think the reason why we're very excited about the Air Force is that they're really focused on a pathway of

Commercialization I mean we've executed proposals with many government agencies many of which are focused on the research side which often gets shelved where this is rather the pressure to work together to find a transition

Strategy to making this a commercialized solution so we're in this to go to production they understand that that's not something that happens overnight however it is something that we're gonna continue to put effort against and yeah

I mean they're gonna be like any anybody that we do any kind of pilot with or we start to open up their systems we're gonna start with a permission structure we're gonna do something safe so they get comfortable however what I've

Noticed with working with the Department of Defense versus many of the enterprise customers in the public sector is that they're way more willing to allow this data to flow it's very you would think it'd be counterproductive that they

Would be very you know risk adverse but that's not the case not to say that they're not risk adverse I mean they are the Department of Defense but they're willing to embrace these new technologies and look at those those

Kind of challenging situations like what does a public ledger look like yeah it may be areas that we have to really hone in to understand the functions of this and where this data is going on chain what's being stored where where are

These nodes you know in the in the world so they kind of wrap their head around it but once you start to look at the the upside of tapping into a public network the the ability to validate this using our consensus model shows this burst of

Transactional throughput and a way to actually validate and manage this data in a whole new way so Bravo yeah I'm excited because we're focused on use cases with real customers within the Department of Defense to ground this in

Reality in a commercialized fashion right and they don't want to ask you as well or benjamín rather with regard to the blockchain itself you alluded to this before in and quite rightly pre crypto the narrative of what chain was

Certainly there and there was a lot of interest among all different enterprise and government parties as to how that could be integrated into their mainstream systems and that's no different today there's

Still strong evidence to suggest that blockchains been relevant for some time now has that been relatively valuable when it's come to be present your proposal come to present your permissionless systems and in the dag

Based technology given that blockchain is not new yeah absolutely I mean look at the precipice of blockchain everybody thinks financial you know they think of financial transactions Bitcoin that's

Where it started but then what comes along with that as identity identity was definitely a close second for a lot of companies to start to take a hard look how they managed both and identity and then I would say the big use case and

This is not profound is supply chain management they're thinking all right we're all these different Ledger's that are managing this kind of chain and you know blockchain supply chain or chain it it's like let's marry these together and

When you look at you know we've talked to some of the major airlines out there that have FAA traceability issues and so for them to have that audit trail that shows every spot within that entire supply chain to validate it extremely

Meaningful and the nice thing about that use case that I'd noticed is that it doesn't require insane transactional throughput that makes a lot of these solutions like an ethereal more hyper ledger a great testing bed to actually

Show if there's viability with the solution that's a very good point actually because a lot of people are either sold on a million TPS yeah I mean but there are gonna be a place you know when you're going back to that stat of

90% of the data being critical you know created in the last two to three years those use cases or the transactional throughput that's you know with these existing protocols that are being managed is just not enough

And so I don't think people have actually allowed their brain to go beyond the financial identity and supply chain management type of solutions you're right you're very such an interesting point because you're

Alluding once again to the imperative of a good platform to cope with the – and necessities not so much necessarily you know this financial agenda and so once again we see those first iterations of those smart contract systems

Like aetherium certainly led the way but it's not the end point because of the imperative oil and the necessity for greater capacity to cope with these data inner needs as we start to see more of these businesses on board onto things

Like constellation you're showing this right right now literally now by having this contract this is a this is an indicator of what's to come I would imagine because it's time to say you know what we're ready to go we can now

Work with something that's established to try and essentially reformulate how they can valorize their data in a way that's beneficial to them so then I want to talk about how that is beneficial because it has to be clear too that

There are genuine points of value for the businesses themselves or for the agencies as to why they would do this beyond just you know supporting a technological innovation because they won't do it unless it's gonna help them

Yeah you know tell me to tell you something that I'm not gonna name names or I'll get my hand slapped but I've met with many banks I've met with many big institutions and you would think security is at the top of their list and

It's not it's actually convenience they're looking for ways to make this easier faster more efficient security isn't necessarily on there you know dance card and we've realized that in the world of IOT you know Ben always

Says the greatest hack that's get yet to happen is nioh Teja and I completely agree with them but since it hasn't happened yet people aren't all that worried about the security but at the same time since they're not worried

About security they're not thinking about how to interoperate protocols that's why there's all these unique protocols handling these devices all over but they're a moot point if they don't work with one another because you

Have these isolated systems so so yeah I you know and I think about the financial piece it's like it is important but people want efficiencies they want ways to make their work flow much faster much more meaningful but like I said earlier

The Holy Grail we hear this from every single enterprise group that gets blotching cuz some of them don't is the data exchange the interoperability the new marketplace how can they be at the center of that to unlock the data that

They have and collaborate a new meaningful ways to create revenue channels that largely are untapped to this day right now Ben as one of the co-founders I want to go back to you for a moment and ask you a direct

Question given we're talking about the value of the technology essentially to enable more efficiency because underneath that's the scalability patek knology this does it amaze you right now that so much of the narrative

In crypto is actually the opposite of that it's based on speculation it's based on pumping prices it's based on pushing short-term thinking it's based on so many things that are antithetical to the long-term vision of a technic

Tech centric in team centric approach to reformulating how we look at you know technology itself to integrate with business yeah I think that there is a shift occurring in the space and last year was hard it was a hard year to the

Pound it was a hard year to actually build a business and set expectations straight nobody really wanted to set expectations straight they wanted to moon that is not a real expectation by definition I mean

When was the last time we went to the moon is the United States so I think what you're starting to see I see this within our community and I love our community our community has is latched on to our verbage and our vernacular

Around talking about big data and what comes with big data and it's less of a financial instrument and seeing that organic shift happen within a community is starting to show collaboration because big data is pretty complicated

To understand it's a computer science decree of some sort to really understand what we're wrapping our head around because people are just starting to figure out blockchain and now we're saying scrap that that's old news

We've got this whole new paradigm and it's gonna take all of you to kind of pick each other up educate on the opportunities and why we matter and why we'll be such an impactful solution to data exchanges that scale and having

Valid data to be interoperable amongst data systems so I I think it's yes there is a chilling component and that's kind of the Gama fication of the whole space it's fun it's light-hearted it's competitive it's like playing fantasy

Football for those of you that live in America and but now there is this kind of expectation that it's like and something as a team that we live by is not chilling out partnerships and just because we have a meeting with somebody

Doesn't mean we have a partnership just because we sign up for AWS doesn't mean it's a prior ship and been distant or up for a second there I want to address a point you made about can be fun and light-hearted but the point I think it's

Also important to raise the question of you know is that always the case because once it gets a certain point where you know things are the shield when they don't have real value and things are superficially punished with very very

Limited or very watered-down proof then it becomes less fun and much more risky for those who buy into that belief so the big question is you know are you part of this new wave of narratives quite sincerely that are actually trying

To say the let's look at the proof let's look at the proof of uptake prism adoption first and foremost as a pro as opposed to proof of promises you know what chains of belief yeah I would absolutely say that I mean Benjamin and

I have talked to maybe a hundred out of the fortune 500 companies over the past year in our research and not one of them have heard of another blockchain project other than aetherium and maybe iota so when I say that we're genuinely going

Out there and talking with groups we are and we're we're hearing a new script so yeah I do we are part of a new a new roadmap and it was a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow and now they're starting to

See what comes with that and how educated our entire team is about any given use case and the technology and that's how it should be right side gentlemen that education is also our fundamental when it comes to

Transforming how we color the whole landscape of crypto so that we it comes once again from proof rather than promises 100% I mean I feel like it's our responsibility to distill this message into a palatable in a meaningful

Way to show people to value their transition strategy to viability versus wowing them with crypto numbers or how great our consensus model is don't get me wrong those matter but not to them you know they want to know is this gonna

Get me a raise is this gonna save my job are we gonna be out of business in two years because we're mismanaging our data that's the way they think so yeah I would say that you know that's been our approach

Absolutely well gentlemen thanks for being transparent about that now Benjamin I want to go back to you to re-explore the Air Force partnership now one of the things that's interesting is this is just the beginning for a long

Road map in this proposal contract and plan is built in phases can you talk us through from phase one and beyond and exactly what you know you anticipate and now that if things are ratified and certified through the contract yeah

Absolutely so I mean I really appreciate the phased approach it's a way that we work with our enterprise folks waste way we work with the consortium or groups any type of research what is the transition strategy because you're not

Gonna come out of the gate guns blazing and I think that's a really wise way to approach a new technology like this you know the phased approach for us is really taking this first phase as a way to fan out and bring in a lot of the

Interested parties that want to work with us and to your point educate them a little bit on some of the areas they may be soft on because let's be honest there's a whole gamut of understanding when it comes to distributed ledger but

Even then showing them less about like hey here's how a consensus ball works but here's the outcome of leaning into something that's novel like a constellation solution and then when we get into Phase two we start to actually

Build out a lot of those use cases and you know proof of concepts a lot of those are going to be working within our own systems but during phase two the big gap I would say between those is that we get what is called authority to operate

So we have to go through this to get the proper clearance in order to work with their live data we can work with a lot of unclassified stuff that we can work with in our own systems but that's kind of the next step is kind of learning the

Ropes of the inside versus having to us you know prove our wealth by you know just hustling guts so it's super exciting because there's a lot of different factions within multi-domain command and control that can see huge

Value to this and then just to put a cap on it phase 3 is really the commercial adoption that's when constellation becomes a customer of one of or many of these factions and we support them kind of from that customer engagement

Approach essentially there's three that three Faisel three teed approach to you know the the startup or sorry rather the the pilot moving towards products and proofs and processes that we can start to see for hand perhaps integrating to

Other government agencies so I wanted to talk a bit more on the value of research because people will respond to this and they'll say well look your partnerships really about research initially how do we know it's going to move into Phase

Two how can we have certainty that it's going to morph into a genuinely authentic commercialize a commercialized based contract what do you say to that you know given that we don't know the full nature of your contract but

Certainly all of us want to see the emergence of proof at the end of the phases that there's some real deal meaningful partnerships that emerged with real productivity in mind yeah absolutely into Ben's point earlier

We've had many of opportunities in the past year to have an announced partnerships that I didn't feel comfortable putting out there because I want true substance there but to answer your question how we do it is we show we

Don't tell and the best part about working with the Air Force is that multi-domain is command and control is predicated on a lot of work we've already done so it's not like we're going after you say okay how do we make

Sense of this news case and try to win more of their favor but rather how do we take all this work we've done over the last year that the community and most folks don't even know about the demos we built the things that we've proven out

And show them hey this is how it were and kind of winning their minds by seeing the true application of the technology and in dumbing it down I think one of the things that makes people very nervous in enterprise and in

Government or anybody in big data is gonna you know we're gonna have to learn a new protocol we're going to learn all these new languages we don't know L'Occitane and that's one of the things that makes constellation so great is

That we integrate to existing systems we're a lightweight layer that plugs right in so you can start bringing data in through our state channels and then it can be queried at any point in real time so it's that's been really a great

Piece to this is you know sitting down with the folks they hear like watching here big data and they think oh god this can be complicated once we start putting things back and showing how to really deploy it's it's actually a very

Pleasant surprise rival Benjamin talked us through that all being I know you want to jump in talk us through this the phrase easy integration in the context of example so let's say I am NOT the air force but

Another entity that's heard about you because of the air force announcement how easy is it for me if I don't know a lot about blockchain to integrate with you and what services do you provide beyond just the technology itself

Jorgensen you take this one right so so Brad just I just kind of want to take a step back on the whole research angle by the first phase and what we're doing is really kind of navigating the entire United States Air Force right like by

Research it's not like hey let's put together a research paper it's about understanding how to collaborate with various organizations within the Air Force so which what you would do in any organization is find an internal

Champion to elevate you and sell you through the organization so really it's an assessment phase that's what it really is discovery phase for sure absolutely yeah so yeah just navigating integrating

We're one of the unique blockchain projects that's a that's taking external data sets or heterogeneous data sets and bridging that to a distributed ledger technology so what that means is that we'll be able to

Either append our technology onto existing api's and data feeds or it actually they be able to integrate our api with with an existing application where a client has the ability to create and customize their data schema or state

Channel on our network right so that's awesome but how do you make it easy for me if I've got my own data schema as you mentioned in my own agenda my own API is how are you going to make it easy for me to integrate given that sometimes in the

Contexts of really successful technology they may not have the systems in place and the services in place to make the integration process seamless and easy and thus they lose business so how have you made sure that you also can cater

For this ease of transition for someone you know who or any entity or agency that doesn't really have the the knowledge the background or anything at all really as a skill set base to make it and make the switch across well I

Think if you're if you're a data scientist you're looking for a solution that we have and you're looking to not have to learn a new code like solidity but be able to implement within some spirit of Java framework right and so

Our technology has been built since the beginning to integrate with various big data stacks that traditional Big Data diet our data scientists are familiar with like flink encode OOP and spark and so that's that's kind of where core is

In working with people this is a very different application and use case that applies to real world data engineers mmm so in that context then being one of the co-founders is it fair to say that the way you guys are approaching the

Commercial commercialization is looking at very substantial entities again not to FOMO but that's where I'm hearing the nuances here or the sentiment seems to be look not only looking at real potential but looking at those that have

The clout and have the backing that's really going to consolidate this reciprocal agenda of data res value I mean I think that's what we're trying to to sell here is that there's a whole world of data that's that has hygiene

Issues so is it clean as it organizes it parsed and that's having upstream impact on business logic and business management and AI and machine learning are all impacted by data and what we often find is that we're talking with

You know anybody that's in artificial intelligence and AI engineer that's doing machine learning and they're more about like just give me more data well if you have that still have bate bad data and you're plugging bad data into

AI you're gonna have faulty AI so our whole our whole vision is kind of setting the precedent to have quality data where I can probable and used at this level of high computational right but in that sense they've been with your

Entrepreneurial experience as well and some of the others in your team I've looked at it have that business background as well as Benjamin here are you are you still focusing though on those with the essential assets you know

Those that have that cloud as I mentioned that's that strength of backing from whether it be an enterprise or a government government agency to really consolidate your start in this the career force is a really good

Example but when you're starting to build this out in your partnership pipe pipeline are there like entities such as the Air Force to come that's what I'm alluding to in or are you sort of just non-discriminatory in the way you

Approach this oh yeah I can take this one we've got a myriad of partners and use cases going on it's it's it's kind of endless which is scary but it's also exciting because it's about data and not about a financial instrument yeah and I

Mean I would add to that guy even though there isn't Merida then we have focus and we are on a lot of calls like Ben was saying and there's a lot that just aren't a fit and it's because their data that isn't big enough and their pain

Isn't big enough you know they're like yeah we have some stuff that works pretty good and it's not great but you know we're not gonna lose our jobs over and who cares but then there's others that it's just insurmountable and that's

Why we found ourselves smack dab in the mobility space is because the automotive space is moving really hard at innovation you know a lot of people die behind the wheel it's a big deal and

There's a lot of data being created and therefore when you think machine learning AI mobility IOT what do they have all in common they require a ton of data to really operate at their best capacity and to Ben's point if it's

Garbage data coming in then those things aren't operating in their best capacity so while we do have a wide net it's it's been narrowing fairly quickly and so the air force is a perfect example of an institution that sees that their data is

Valuable the manageable management of it is extremely painful and they know that they're missing out on new opportunities and ways to react right and Benjamin I really appreciate your honesty with

Regard to you dismissing some of those that don't have that market feed or don't have that same agenda very few do disclose you know just how much of it is not suitable for when we know a dag system or perhaps you know the agenda

That you put up pushing forward now with regard to reciprocal announcements you know this kind of contract is a big deal it's been pushed right through Twitter from your side what about there's you know for me when I'm doing research I

Want to know that the announcements are supported from both ends from the mainstream party and from the the the crypto startups so are they also acknowledging this kind of you know exciting partnership that you certainly

You know let everyone know about yeah absolutely I mean they're cheering us on they're making things very easy but are they gonna single this out amongst a you know a bunch of people that have contracts absolutely not that's not

Their business they want to show a clean playing level playing field and the SBIR their whole focus is chirping us into that discovery process and connecting us with those groups that desire our solution so I've been in many situations

Where I almost feel vilified when I come at a contract you know like they're just trying to kick me down to prove that I can't do it where this is largely the opposite this is a way for them to Sherpa us to demystify a lot of the

Inner workings of the air force that then and I don't have an experience with but they don't have experience with Silicon Valley you know SAS tools and go market when it comes to technology they just wrote that's why their stuff is

Sitting in the Middle Ages right and it's interesting too because the approach they're taking clearly is pragmatic and and I think it's important also for us to understand that in that mainstream scenario many of them don't

Simply react in the way that crypto does with regard to promotions of new formalized contracts because they're so commonplace in the Air Force context they're you know they're literally every day so it is important though that we

Did raise that question as to how they are approaching and acknowledging this partnership yeah I mean that absolutely makes sense I mean in our press release we went ahead and used a quote from them I mean we've been sharing with the

Community the announcement as well as the inner workings of what our proposal looks like but again even if we get to a place where we're applying our technology when we get to a place where we're applying our technology technology

In a commercialized way the Air Force isn't in the business of doing marketing announcements they don't care because it doesn't do them any good that's not gonna be something that is gonna be like yeah we made an announcement now we're

More protected and fact they've always been kind of a tight lip route for good reasons so right the community expecting them to come out and start waving a constellation flag that ain't gonna happen anytime soon all right okay well

I love the pretty fences you know I mean most companies don't really announced just partnerships or exploring their technology like a it's it's not in their best interests especially if they're competitive organization to be like by

The way right a guard like that to me is more of like a crypto thing like I don't know what kind of validation you know you can move for beyond that it's it's on them if they want to talk about some of the the partnerships that they have

For the SBIR or who's under contract you know and I think a lot of interesting press that comes out today is around metrics and how major shifts have occurred based off of a certain technology and even then that doesn't

Get a lot of press what gets a lot of press our funding announcements and acquisitions in M&A and like new iPhone releases somehow still managing on the front then I'm so glad we're talking about this because

The question is isn't it reasonable to suggest that this needs to happen you know as we start to see tokenizing economies emerge new and innovative startups like yours isn't it reasonable to look back at what works in the old

Model in that legacy model and bring that forward more in terms of proof just like the IPO model when we see technologies emerge on Wall Street those series rounds are literally based on proof you know our value as you alluded

To with technological announcements often that's literally hardware that's announced as a new iteration that people can literally intangibly explore so does this narrative need to change into more of a proof model the narrative of

Announcing or having other partners announced their collaboration or just more as a holistic approach because the prepare that tendencies now are more about prospective value you know we use the analogy of digital gold but then

When it comes to what we really see in crypto it's literally the hope based system a belief based system of what's to come what could come but when you look at it from a proof perspective it's what has come you know in terms of the

Temporalities of this so when we explore the value of constellation for example you guys are clearly sending the message it's what we do what we've done we'll announce subsequent to that so there is that you know approach that we've seen

In legacy systems and legacy models yeah absolutely I understand what you're getting at and it's it's on us and other leaders in the space and I know several several companies that are taking this approach to to be doers before you

Announce collaborations because it'll be more impactful and it'll be in more depth and you know a lot of what we've done is to articulate flushed out use cases 24 page papers that we've done and and the focus has been this is what

We've done you know we're not about to do this is what we've done and this is what we want to articulate yeah so that truly understand and have the research at their fingertips to go wow I can make an educated decision on following this

Company and backing them and supporting them and rallying behind them because they are they are being more accountable to the information they send out so exactly it pertinent to be I would like to add something if I could

So go ahead yeah I was just gonna say that it's saying it's a two-sided coin yeah we're really big on sharing with the community and the public what we plan on doing from a technology roadmap because that's key to understanding when

We're gonna make deposits when's main net coming how do we onboard a node operators because those things require us well where is it dangerous game to talk about what we're going to do in business but rather talk about what

We've done because if we start saying oh we're gonna close this partnership by this date knowing from my business development background that's a fool's that's a very stupid thing to do because there's so many variables and don't get

Me wrong technology has its variables too but it's much easier to manage that instead of precedents cuz I do think that the public in our community deserves that but I think it's the right move for us to keep a tight lip until we

Have to so I totally respect that and I think we need more people speaking like this because whilst we all support trustless systems and borderless systems the real trust is in proof the real trust is in the value that you bring as

You can showcase that in real context so I appreciate you know your can approach to this as well Benjamin I want to talk about the pricing model you have and profit sword centric and profit gear systems I tried a bit understanding are

You a revenue generating model yet or going to be and how is it that you're going to onboard clients with regard to pricing models we are a for-profit entity which opens up opportunities and working with different divisions of the

Government for instance being a for-profit companies allowed us to get a contract in the United States Air Force for exactly the way we're trying to bridge a crypto economy you here yeah nice yeah way that we're

Trying to bridge a token economy or crypto economy with real-world revenue is in our first stages were attempting to burn some of our supply of tokens to represent a partnership because the way that we see that as kind of a license

For our time and technology that we built and that's our extension back to the community things that were exploring in the near future that once we've onboard node operators which we're doing at the end of September which is a very

Exciting time for us is is to kind of bridge that gap is there a profit share model that can exist we get everybody to participate in the same aspects that that we're seeing you know driving revenue and support and then how do we

Encourage companies like the United States Air Force and governments like United States Air Force to use open and public networks right so these are all things I really want to talk to you about this burn that you mentioned

Because it's substantial the amount is being burnt in these contract contractual agreements or in concert with some of the real business than clients that you're onboarding and the reason why I want to just get really

Open and transparent about it is because any in my role when I'm talking to me startups about burning many of them have your gender are producing they're circulating supply or reducing their total supply because obviously that has

Serious implications beneficial ones for you know attention with regard to the metrics the system when we see speculation as primary in a reason for people to enter into this space so how does burning relate to utility how does

It burning I think at this point it it relates to utility in the sense that we're kind of removing any potential liquidity into the markets that might hurt a value of what somebody owns ROMs know there's less potential for a flood

Of new tokens to come in to the market so that bodes confidence in our system and our networking what we're building in our attempts to bridge our attention of real world partnerships and when they'll be coming on to an open

Network and so to satisfy both worlds we use what we what we do is we're learning a percentage of our tokens to represent a stake in the network if you will right investment I'm sorry to interrupt Ben but I want to go to Benjamin and get his

Take on this because it's fascinating fascinating to me that this is happening now Benjamin you're part of the business dev and and the unfurling of the success of the business model what is your were your thoughts on reducing supply

Increasing scarcity as clients on board and is this finite by design this model if you say for example had a huge number of partnerships emerge in the pipeline now what's that going to do to your supply and your utility model if it's to

Be the fuels for your whole ecosystem put it on mute there second I mean it's a great question and I don't have a crystal ball I mean I would be fortunate enough to think that we could bring on ten customers like the

Department of Defense all at once I mean I don't know if we'd be able to handle the management of that but what I feel that mattias our VP of Finance and Ben Jorgenson have done a great job on the token economics is kind of playing that

Moving forward and saying hey there is a relationship here you know that there is we're not going to just kind of hope to see what happens but we're tying our efforts to this this token model so that way that there is balance as we grow as

A company so it's it's it's no different than in my opinion of looking at like a Libra who's minting and burning their tokens to keep a stable coin stable we're looking at it in the way of the network utility in the future making

Sure that these deposits that we see having a really great pathway of success like a clear path as those that were essentially staking a flat on so bright that's large I look at it and well wait a minute well what if one of them sorry

Go ahead Ben really quick just it puts a force function on an entity to go by exchanges but I don't actually think that a United States Air Force is gonna go on an exchange in purchase dag we're gonna have to act as custodians of the

Currency and so by burning tokens it forces our hand to go back to exchanges and by circulating supply and by that product that can be then given to the client or run well I can tell you gentlemen that from my experience in

This you know working in this space is that whenever we see successful burn models built in it certainly captures the imagination and attention of the speculative arm or of crypto itself are you aware that you know that would be

Exciting those who aren't looking at your value like it longitudinally but looking at in the short term are you aware that they certainly will be work seeking to capitalize on trade and on you know playing the crypto game simply

Because of this burn model we've seen this evidenced already in many other examples all the way to finance with their model so what are your thoughts on me stating that yeah Brad I think it's a

Great question something that we definitely considered at length before we make a decision to do this or approach and one of the important things that that we all have to kind of remember is that the community is what

Makes up a lot of our projects right and not just from our community standpoint but from being node operators so what you know they're going to be contribute their time resource and energy and money to be no validators on our network and

So what are they earning in the process of doing work and contributing compute resources to our network that is part of the community and that you have to create confidence in what your token is what the supply is so that it's worth

Their time we can't tell you what's going to happen we can only help make you give people the ability to make them educated guests on where they're gonna put their their attention right okay it makes a low sense now moving back again

Sorry to push those tough questions but Benjamin recently in one of your no worries Benjamin recently one of your youtubes you mentioned that the focus is on your words real viability now can you can we

Extrapolate a little bit more in the context of once again Air Force Punisher for any others that you want to disclose in terms of how we can see this continue through in the roadmap of more real viability more real use case and more

Real success yeah absolutely it's all about adoption I mean we we want to see our spore platform utilized in a way where people are building in state channels with validation schemas bringing their data on chain in a new

Way I mean that may seem like what I just said kind of just like whatever but turning that corner is it's really tough but once it happens that to me is true adoption that's viability that's when the light bulbs go off and we've even

Gotten to the point where we've brainstormed some really cool stuff in the background of taking public leads to show that these and schemas that bring on even public feeds can interoperate data that's

Living in the public sector right now and that's fascinating to folks because it creates new ways to utilize this data in meaningful ways so that to me is how do i define true viability is when they start on board putting their data on

Chain through a data schema through a state channel that's right and really with something to say just the beginnings of this with these pilot contracts now going back to the model of Revenue I want to find out a bit more

About the transparency aspects how much of this are you guys disclosing in terms of pricing in terms of cost if you know we want to know how much it costs for clients of different types to engage or is this customized and private um I

Wouldn't say it's private I think that we've done a good job of sharing the model because I think that's really the crux of this we don't have a rate card that's not really how this works it's not like hey you know

Buy-one-get-one-free this is yeah we're attaching a true SAS like model that's really around the data handling that's palatable and going back to the kind of micro transaction side it gets very interesting of us being that layer in

Between those transactions so yeah we are exposing some of that but for us to just tell everybody how we're going to market with each individual entity I think would be a dangerous game to play because we haven't we have a lot to

Learn I'm not gonna sit here and say that we we have everything figured out but we have a lot figured out and we have trusted partners and champions on the inside that are worth they're willing to explore this with us and what

We put in front of them to show them how the movie plays forward from that pricing strategy it makes total sense and at least it made enough sense for the Air Force to take us on that's one of the things that when you do explore

The pricing model that we're implementing we we tend to think that the future and the next wave of mass adoption on enterprise using distributed ledger will be some sort of native plugin that occurs on a cloud

Infrastructure like as your or ws or several others out there and essentially that goes through their ability to pass metadata through a network like constellation while then passing into their own data warehouse so

For us to see true scalability and adoption from enterprise organizations those native plug-in containerized solutions into cloud infrastructures will have to exist and thus pricing structures will actually need to

Correlate to hosting fees that we become added benefits or added features that we stack on top of the existing hosting fees and data packets right if you look now I want to talk to you Benjamin again about given that what Ben said you know

About essentially the fundamentals of the the asset and the fact that it is valuable by design for enterprises more generally and for agencies but how do you spread this like wildfire given that you're in relatively competitive

Marketplace certainly there's scope for others to emerge with you and alongside you there's no question of that but you still want to capture a market share you still want to go beyond the air force and really spread this forth as you know

Arguably as quickly and efficiently as possible but based on real proof so how are you going to approach the commercialization strategy you know especially given that if these phases work and everything goes to plan

You still need ambassadors to lead this out globally considering that over 20% of the issues within the Department of Defense stem from Big Data even the call we had today with one of our contacts at the air force they brought up three

Names of folks that they thought could use this so I feel like the permeation of our solution is gonna happen rather quickly when you look at data scientists spending upwards of 70% of their time managing and cleaning data that right

There is a line item that they can scratch that's an easy layup for us to start to attack those data management teams so there is low-hanging fruit in this face that said we're not in a huge hustle I would push back that there's

Going to be others entering the space that can come near the technology that why it has well I mean maybe that's my hubris I get it but I really believe in this solution that's why I've stuck this through and

And I'm pushing hard but I think that it's really gonna come down to finding those champions and going after the low-hanging fruit there's so much opportunity out there it's just a matter of getting the right thread and pulling

It and we're already seeing much evidence of that right and what's really interesting about what you said is that you know unlike we see networking narratives Drive many other startups you're you're employing that you know

Having this kind of real-deal connection and support from the Air Force in its collaboration that the network's offered from them you know those partners our contacts rather that that a non crypto context you know that are legitimate

Entities that they are connected with that would be arguably invaluable because you know it's a domino effect of the highest level yeah and that's that's why I think when you look at the Air Force they're all in the same bed

Together they're not competing maybe from certain internal resources but when it comes to solutions they're all trying to help each other out because they look at the hole right it's a holistic view and we're seeing the same thing in the

Automotive space the supply the tier 1 tier 2 suppliers there's a lot of collaboration and cross-pollination once these companies start to get hit on the fact that we're validating this data at scale in ways

That they've never had spend the missing piece for these large exchanges that they're going after then it's really about just walking one into the next it's what we've seen early stages of that already just in our involvement

With that space so I think it's the one-two punch you got the pub public and private sector so we're excited to start announcing some of our public sector type stuff here pretty soon but naturally it was great to put a stake in

The ground with the Air Force I totally agree so I'm looking forward to hearing more of that second punch now Ben I want to go back to you and quickly just ask we'd always talked about this every time but runway you know making sure that you

Know now that you're starting to make money the revenue models working I do you have significant runway to make sure that Benjamin here has a job and your team is still strong and growing can we trust that you've got the you

Know the war chest full and that you can really build this out for the long term yeah bread as we talked about last time when you asked that we have sufficient runway and we're building out pricing models

And clients with the onboarding of revenue to extend runway in cattorini I didn't want to hop on that long something's gonna jump in and stop there because it's clear that you comforted on that but then do you want to talk now

About exchanges because there's no fair enough arias actions out there there's questionable conduct there's certainly questionable exchanges now liquidity is important obviously but there are those that also you know utilize or you know

Onboard your token onto their platform and you don't ask them to I know but that does happen are you concerned about some of their problems inherent with illegitimate exchanges with dodgy practices shady practices you know

Endows they're just simply some percent I've actually talked to the few I it's interesting with the way that that space is shaping up I've talked with a few around leveraging constellation to validate data and transactions or you

Know we essentially could be a core technology that's agnostic to data and provides some sort of stamp of approval that it's validated that the data is validated by a community so I totally see that there's a future and kind of

Revamping standards in the space and we can be a huge part of that that aspect right now Benjamin with regard to the prospect of collaborating and working with exchanges obviously that has to come from them I understand that but in

That context are you confident that they'll be more door-knocking in the sense that exchanges of credibility of all high standard reputation and repute are they being on your daughter's suggest the idea of working with you to

Support you yeah I mean absolutely it's something that I mentioned every time I talk with them is their collaborations around utilizing our technology and sending a new standard in the space so we're

Already seeing a lot of moving on right and what about nan and crypto exchanges I really want to touch on that because this is it's clear that as a business model as a real real deal business it's no question that you could emerge in non

Crypto environments as well is that something that you are considering like in like the S&P and Nasdaq I'm like whoa I wanted to open that question up more than close it look are exploring blockchain technology and are

Incorporating it you know TD Ameritrade allows you to trade crypto like there those are bridges happening and I know you want to get away from crypto but those are bridge is happening that there's a lot of exploration around new

And disruptive platforms that can invite new accountability in the space absolutely well gentlemen I can't thank you enough both of you for a very detailed unpacking of your recent announcements I wanted to really explore

Beyond the presentation of the announcement and understand it properly for the audience so hopefully that has happened but I want to thank you both presenting clear understandings of your business focus because obviously as a

Profit system as one that's utilized bridging technology with a real business modems and more important than real agencies that are backed by the government for example in the u.s. this is really significant guys this is

Potentially part of the game changing narrative we need to see to validate the value of blockchain to validate the value of critical cryptography and also tokenized economies themselves in concert with and what we've already seen

Existent in technology before so thank you very much for letting us know about the value of the air force connection Benjamin it's been nice to meet you as well and congratulations on leading out what has been a very exciting

Announcement but I'm looking forward to the future as well as regard to is this just the beginning for you guys is this literally just the start of several pilots programs partnerships to come that showcase that your technology means

Something for efficiency productivity and cost saving well Bradley the the pleasure's on mine you're a true professional and this has been a fantastic interview and is as long as there's blood pumping through

Mr. Jorgensen's body in my own we're gonna make this happen and I'm looking forward to the next installment of another interview to show you all the great stuff that we've achieved I can't Wyatt and Ben thank you Mike for

Your time as well it's always good to catch up with you you want to finish off with the final statement man I think we've said a lot tonight and I'm I'm really excited by the level of your questions and the feedback will get and

Support will get so I can't thank you enough I can't thank everybody else for for supporting us over the years guys are very welcome and thank you for all of you listening in thank you for surviving this very long interview it's

Been very very detailed but obviously the reason is we want to know all we possibly can find out about the quality startups in this space giman all the best of luck and Benjamin giggles I'll hold you to it mate hopefully we'll

Catch up when we have the next you know big announcement such as the air force to really explore and unpack you bet take care guys

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