AMD Exclusive Q&A: Zen 3 & X370, B450 Feature Blocking, DDR5, & Post-Mortem

by birtanpublished on August 29, 2020

Today we're revisiting B 450 and X 470 in Xen 3 support hopefully one final time this well up until stuff starts breaking and we'll revisit it again but this time with official QA from Andy with some on record answers and additional industry insight from other

Board makers and some of our thoughts Andy is reversing its decision but it has acknowledged basically all the key technical and market points that we brought up in the previous two videos the previous video especially about 16

Mega byte by OS limitations that is more relevant than ever right now we'll talk about more of that in a little bit and and that contains some of the key challenges that Andy brought up in its announcement today that it's going

Backwards with the support so in this one we'll be talking about 300 series support actually 70 be 350 ddr5 support and ddr5 and for splits some unofficial commentary from motherboard manufacturers and official commentary

From AMD directly and motherboard manufacturers directly and we'll also be talking about whether Andy will limit or disables and three features on 400 series motherboards now that they're getting support our video from a few

Days ago as mentioned is more relevant than ever here so if you have any questions at all about the technical nuance of how all this works definitely go check that one out we were almost 100 sensor at the time of

Writing that that AMD would reverse its decision so based on the conversations we had with motherboard makers we wrote the content around the technical and the market reasons for Andy's decision-making process and why they did

Any of this at all all that is a detailed and interesting deep dive into the inner workings of BIOS programming and the challenges AMD faced that video also contains thoughts on the size of the enthusiast market the sales volume

Of the 400 series chipset the thoughts from other board manufacturers with direct quotes and information on which motherboard manufacturers were more for or against this change to move to Xen 3 support we won't be recapping that here

But if you want to understand the inner workings of the industry and BIOS check it out in this one we're gonna do strictly a QA with AMD with some additional thoughts so this is all on record answers at this point before that

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By recapping and these announcement and the notice that we got before launch Andy told us that it would be posting this announcement on its official blog but that didn't happen in the company ended up doing a reddit exclusive

Announcement one of the rare times you'll see that which sort of goes to show you the size of the enthusiast user base and the amount of people really complaining it seems like a ton of people from our perspective but

Realistically you're talking a fraction of a fraction of a percent of 8% of the market for him these seventy percent of retail so anyway it was at reddit only announcement we got a notice a bit ahead of a official announcement and Andy made

A number of comments in the announcement that confused users with some terminology confusion as well so we worked with them to clarify that key information from Andy confirmed several of the story lines we were explaining

Previously and we'll walk through the announcement now so it says we recently announced that we would not support Zen 3 on AMD 400 series motherboards due to serious constraints and spi ROM capacities in most of the AMD 400 series

Motherboards officially a lot of people when AMD first have this this is a while ago a lot of people said bs I call BS that's not true there's plenty of space in the ROM that's actually it was true so what AMD said was accurate and we've

Explained that but wanted to point that out that it was an accurate statement and the further said over the past week we closely reviewed your feedback on that news we watched every video nice read every comment and saw every tweet

We hear that many of you hopes for a longer upgrade path and we hear your hope that AMD B 415 X 470 chipsets would carry Ince's m3 era so here's the caveat on the notes andy says that it will develop and enable its motherboard

Partners with a special bios that has n3 enabled for the 400 series boards and note separately that Andy is not opening up the adjacent code they're not providing documentation to binary codes provided the motherboard manufacturers

They could reverse engineer it and do other mods to it if they wanted but Andy doesn't make easy for them so that's still closed but they are providing code to make this change these are optional BIOS updates

And these says will disable support for existing AMD rise in desktop processor models to make the necessary ROM space available so moving forward it's it's a one-way ticket for this one separately it says the Select beta bios is will

Enable a one-way upgrade path for AMD Rison processors with Xen 3 coming later this year flashing back to an older bios version will not be supported and for those of you who said will the AMD apologists who are defending AMD now

Stop first off we weren't defending AMD we provided both halves of it pretty clearly we just didn't jump into full outrage mode hammering on the keyboard this is the worst thing literally that's happened ever this year so that's the

Big division there is providing some actual balance to it versus just we weren't going as crazy as you and so that's somehow defense but this what AMD saying here backs up all of that so by enabling a one-way upgrade path they

Resolve some of the issue we were presenting where Andy would have to worry about a massive test matrix of potentially hundreds of thousands of variants of CPU plus BIOS provision that they would have to validate and the

Further said to reduce the potential for confusion our intent is to offer BIOS download only to verified customers of the 400 series motherboards and who have purchased the new desktop Xen 3 processor to ensure that as bootable

We're gonna come back to this one a lot of people asked what has verified me and what is that so we're gonna come back to that timing and availability they said if BIOS updates will vary and then this is the final upgrade pathway and you can

Enable for 400 series motherboards Xen 3 is gonna be the end of the line you need a new board if you're going beyond n 3 there's question about that too and well what does that really mean there's no hidden meaning here we'll talk about

That in a moment finally AMD continues to recommend customers choose a 500 series motherboard for the best performance and features with the new CPUs so ok all that done we can probably get into some

Questions and answers we talked with AMD this is all official commentary now so this is again on record responses what that really means is we don't have to say we spoke with sources we spoke with motherboard manufacturers so we can give

You an actual company we spoke with the name it so let's get into that section so the most commonly question asked has been about the 300 series support we saw those questions everywhere kmf n in the

A.m. the announcement thread asks the following quote I'm not expecting any BIOS updates for X 370 motherboards but I don't see a definitive statement as to whether or not there will be any attempts made on this chip set via very

Select boards or not at all they continued and said as the chipsets are basically identical it would be up to the individual motherboard manufacturers if I had to guess we read this question to Andi and asked the answer is hard no

At least right now so there is no support for the 300 series 4 X 370 or B 350 right now the official and the answer is that there will not be support for Xen 3 on the 300 series boards and this is not up to the motherboard

Manufacturers this is from AMD directly so this is going to be whether you want to call it a block or just this simply the code isn't there to support it either way it's not something that motherboard manufacturers will be able

To do and if a motherboard manufacturer did bother to find a workaround and somehow managed to make it work the question of would they be allowed to do it was one we saw in that thread as well for that they probably wouldn't be

Punished from with what we understand but it's likely that if a loophole is found it would be plugged by AMD directly pretty quickly kind of like what we saw with PCIe Gen 4 and the 400 series of motherboards early on so and

Also by the way it's it's really unlikely that motherboard manufacturers are gonna go back that far and support it unless there's insane outcry further on this question another user named X railgun asked the following the new og

Site is already segmented knows n1 resent to components anyway I don't see any technical reasons why this Egeus should discriminate between the 300 versus 400 series boards they continue to said sounds like it can be done but

It'll be purely up to the goodwill of the vendor and/or the modding scene so our answer first before getting to Andes is that you are correct it is possible for 350 to run Xen 3 we said that in the previous video as well but be 350 be 450

A 320 whatever they can all runs n3 it's just whether or not AMD makes it happen via the motherboard manufacturers whether the motherboard manufacturers are on board with making that so in a pure technical sense just like

We said in the previous video it is technically possible to do all of these things whether it's realistically possible is another discussion or logistical II possible is another one entirely so Andy's answer is as follows

The average 400 series motherboards has key improvements and changes that it believes offer advantages over the 300 series boards and he says that this includes of your own configuration memory trace topology PCP layers and so

On we'll throw in BIOS as well and noted that to ensure the best customer experience quote AMD must focus on the technical advantages of the 400 series motherboards Andy is correct the 400 series boards are way ahead of their

Predecessors it's also 100% technically possible to enable support but just like B 450 and X 470 as the fiasco it was originally Andy doesn't want to do it for all of the various still technical despite being possible reasons and

Market reasons that exists as discussed again previously andy has those shown that obviously full-on freakout mode will get results so who knows as for will all boards 400 series get support that was another question in the thread

That we'll throw into this one the answer is no it depends on the motherboard manufacturers and what they want to support so 400 isn't unilaterally supported fours m3 next one why didn't am the e response to nur why

Was it dropped at all so AMD we asked why didn't she respond soon into this controversy and the gave us the following information quote we had to spend the time to look at the feedback and analyze the situation we had to go

To engineers and ask what would it look like if we enabled support this wasn't Plan B it wasn't mapped out at all the plan was to drop support so nobody had vetted it or thought all the way through and we had to ask if this is a one-way

Path if we can support 300 series and so on we wanted to come back with the total answer and not a partial or non answer and we'll throw in as well this often involves a lot of legal sign offs for a company this size so it would have been

A fast response regardless as for why the support was dropped and they mostly confirmed several of the technical and key market hurdles that we previously discussed again to watch the second video in the series first one as well if

You want the marketing side but the second one in the series is what really explains all the technical detail for why and the job support and they confirmed a number of those considerations in that video

Officially though for this video and the notes that its intention was quote to take a path forward for the safest upgrade experience for a large number of users and remember that the enthusiast audience is a small one and we give you

The market share numbers in the previous episode as well why can't I flashback words will boot kits become available so it's sort of funny to see this question but it was a common one it's it's funny because everybody just complained about

Not being able to flash forward and now they're maybe annoyed at why they can't flash backwards as well but anyway the reasons are numerous as discussed but will expand with a and these official answer and the officially says customers

Will not be able to flash back to previous BIOS revisions due to quote necessary restructuring that will occur inside of the ROM and this restructuring and the set includes a revision or a change to the file system itself we then

Took this answer to the motherboard makers to say what does this mean what we don't really what does this exactly mean motherboard manufacturers weighed in on the topic and told us that the refactoring of BIOS that is necessary to

Support Xen 3 on B 450 and X 470 as stated previously is is a wide-reaching and that this has specifically the highest chance of breaking a board or causing a failure so the type of restructuring or refactoring of BIOS

Specifically for Xen 3 support on 400 series boards is the type of change because they're changing how BIOS works at a lower level we're not exactly sure the details on on how its structured what's changing but it's changing on the

Last and that's what typically causes higher RNAs it's the most likely to cause what we understand to be from motherboard manufacturers as corruption of BIOS so when flashing between two versions forward and then going back

Again each time you're kind of rolling the dice and if you're going to corrupt the BIOS ROM or not and if you do it becomes an RMA issue and that nobody wants that customers certainly don't want it either even if they get it

Fulfilled it you're still sitting with that board for a month so that's the official reasoning was due to revisions necessary in restructuring basically they don't want to support flashing backwards and forwards and increasing

The potential for bricks boards in the process and the end board makers want to limit the RMA's so we asked well what about USB flash back is that a way around this can you still flash back with USB flash

Back the answer from our AMD contacts was that at this time they're not necessary cert and this is more of a mother were maker question and the answer from motherboard makers is that they might be able to implement certain

Workarounds but don't bet on it if you're a user and that it would depend on how low-level the code executes on the board for the flashback versus how little of the block is on BIOS from preventing flashback and then when we

Asked Andy if they would provide boot kits to update older boards so if you buy a 400 series motherboard in the in a couple months in the future because it's cheap and it's good still and it supports m3 the question is do I need to

Buy on to CPU or older in order to flash this forward does m3 because realistically logistically speaking a lot of the board's that will be on the shelves when's m3 launches for 400 series will still have the older BIOS on

Them they're probably from what we understand and speaking with people this week they're probably not going to be shipping with this m3 BIOS pre-installed so that means you're gonna get an older BIOS board it will not support then

Three out of the box you'll have to update it can I get a boot kit is the question the answer from Andy is a quote that they will get back to us on this and it's too far out and too fresh but decision to have this mapped out we're

Going to assume no that's a really expensive thing to do they don't get all the CDs back we reviewed this process previously in an undercover warranty video we did years ago and he actually did provide an extremely good warranty

Service before the previous boot kit but it's an expensive thing to do and again they don't all come back we'd assume no but it's uncertain and it is a logistical challenge of how do you deal with shipping boards going forward cuz

It's not just gonna kill 400 away it's going to be a slow die down especially for MSI so a question of what they ship with is what becomes valid they could do a dual BIOS thing but that does add a lot of machine time in the factory level

And now you're increasing the cost or a product that's basically eol anyway we're approaching it next question will I get ongoing ageia updates including performance and security updates or patches the answer

From AMD here as we filter it is yes sort of the official and the answer is that it's going to support the 400 series with SMU patches with performance patches with stability updates and with any security patches that come along for

Xen 3 and 500 series on the 400 series boards this adds a whole lot of overhead for AMD and a whole lot of overhead for the motherboard makers so here's the caveat where we say sort of these sort of is that AMD will provide all this

Code and they will make it available to the motherboard manufacturers whether the motherboard manufacturers implement it or start skipping BIOS updates that's on them it's out of andy's hands at that point so if you're on let's say an older

B 450 tomahawk non max like the original one it's possible MSI might look at that at some point and say not that many not enough people care about this the market volume was low whatever the case may be we're gonna stop rolling out every patch

We'll just do every other one or whatever that's a possibility but Andy can't control who is implementing the patches it can't control who skips the updates it can't control the validation of those patches so it comes down to the

Motherboard manufacturers to validate that the CPUs and all the features continue working as those patches roll out and that if any performance updates come out it's up to the motherboard makers to validate and that means

Testing like a massive matrix of testing now with multiple versions of BIOS for the same board which is why they're trying to avoid this but it's up to the motherboard makers to go through that matrix if they have the manpower and

Verify that whatever performance updates are in there actually work and actually do something and we can tell you from experience on the review side there are often several updates before the one that goes public is actually good so we

Normally see them earlier in it and they suck to work with so that's where that boils down and the also can't control how quickly these roll out it noted it can control how quickly it pushes the update to the motherboard bakers but

It's up to them and it's likely that the 500 GS will get preferential treatment it's the newer product and the 400 series owners will get updates later if they get them at all it's likely that the most popular boards will continue

Getting those updates but you'll see that sort of cadence fall out of alignment over time as they become less pop or less important to the makers this includes n3 updates security updates as well not just the

Older ones verified owners of the 400 series what does this mean so in its statement Andy said the following that confused a lot of people they said to reduce the potential for confusion our intent is to offer BIOS download only to

Verified customers of the 400 series and they say for verified customers who purchased a new desktop processor was n3 inside so key statement they are verified customers of 400 series motherboards who have purchased a

Processor what does this mean and how much of a headache is this process we asked and it sounds like the phrasing there was just not well chosen by AMD they had limited time to turn this around apparently so that's what they

Intended to say was the following and the says that verified really just means that you're probably going to be answering a prompt so this could be in a few places it could be in BIOS it could be on the website before you download

BIOS or it could be in the software that the motherboard manufacturer provides when it says hey there's a BIOS update available to you on update and what the the verified means is that you will be asked as a user do you have a zone 3 CPU

They might ask if you have a Sun to CPU we're not sure it's kind of up to implementation but going to ask you of his m3 CPU they're going to ask what motherboard you have and they're going to say by clicking on I agree or I

Accept or whatever maybe you understand and acknowledge that this BIOS update might break your motherboard you understand it acknowledged that you will not be able to boot with your Zen 2 processor that's probably in here now if

You updates as m3 so it's just trying to establish with the users who might get for example a notification via MSI issues software that says there's a BIOS update available do you want it and if they have as entity CPU in there and

They say yes or let's go even older let's say they have a 1,000 CCP whatever it may be they say yes update comes out it doesn't work anymore that's what the prompt is for that's what verified means it's to say that you've got one final

Chance here before you break everything and have to do an RMA now as far as will it be supported if you don't understand which in case that case they're probably out watching this video but someone doesn't understand or it just straight

Doesn't work it flashes incorrectly the answer to warranty support is that that's out of Andy's hands that's a motherboard issue you are now dealing with motherboard manufacturer RMA's and as people who've been to the factories

And the RMA facilities we can tell you that it's pretty rare that motherboard manufacturers will check behind you and verify a lot of your statements so if if you shoved your hand into an intel socket and smashed all the pins that's

One thing but if you say the bios is bricked they're probably just gonna swap the board for you at that point it becomes a question of okay now are they going to pre flash them three BIOS on there or let you get whatever was in the

Warehouse the latter is the most likely the former is what would happen if you had a warranty team that is more renowned for its quality of support they would flash it for you so if they don't flash before you might

End up in the same situation again so that's suboptimal obviously and the the real problem there is more it's not about can you get a warranty fulfilled they'll probably warranty your RNA boards with bricked BIOS it's a question

Of user experience as we discussed previously where now you're potentially waiting something like a month for a board to go to Taiwan and come back or get a new board if they don't cross chip so that's where that concern comes from

And and he also says that the 400 series boards are getting a beta bios explicitly they're not calling it a release BIOS a charlie BIOS it's a beta bias so that means that the board makers are allowed to release a bios with

Disclaimers for boards that are technically on the official support list but we're not intended to support as m3 CPS going forward and that's the caveat there so this is not going to be like backdoor updates to some enthusiasts

Form being leaked by motherboard manufacturers it's going to be official in that capacity we also saw a user question of why did Andy change the marketing from through 2022 until 2020 regarding a.m. for socket support when

We asked AMD the official answer was that Andy has no comment at this time on this question will this update work regardless of BIOS eyes so we already explained this in pretty great detail but to really briefly recap it basically

Pre mattias CPUs do not address 32 megabytes their address space is 16 megabytes for anything Primanti's so that's going to be anything before the current generator now you're talking pinnacle Ridge summit

Ridge all that's everything before 3000 series done two CPUs Primanti's they don't have they have a 16 megabytes range but they can work with 32 megabyte roms if they're made in a 16 plus 16 functionally partition of BIOS if you

Want the technical explainer with all the details on how this works the difficulties involved that compromises and trade-offs watch part 2 it went up a couple days ago it's the one where I'm in the corner holding a medkit and this

In the thumbnail so you can check that one out as for the question Andy says it's just a matter of how many CPUs get an features get dropped if you're on a 16 megabyte BIOS it means that fewer CPUs will have simultaneous support this

Is officially from Andy it means that you may end up with a stripped-down interface and this is from us like MSI's emicida has a stripped-down interface from 16 megabyte roms where it actually accidentally and some iterations got rid

Of fan support it's gotten rid of all kinds of graphics and things like that so you're potentially losing that stuff different compromises will be made there more bugs will be introduced there Andy either way is providing the code it's up

To the motherboard makers to implement and drop the parts and these sort of shifting a lot of this instead of taking it on the notice in other word makers they're pushing it off onto the motherboard makers now they're saying

Well it's it's your issue now QA will you limit or disable future features of Zen 3 on 400 series the answer to this question is no but sort of so Andy in its answer to us on this question is explicitly disabling PCIe gen 4 and all

400 series boards it's technically already off it will remain off if you were part of this discussion when all these things when 400 originally launched then you'll remember that PCIe jenefor was briefly able to work on

Those and if you have that version of BIOS on those boards that worked with it and you want Gen 4 support them don't update because you won't keep it but as for the feature is getting disabled or limited Gen 4 is the only one explicitly

Turned off and everything else aside from this explicit bit flip is supposed to be not explicitly blocked but that's different from enabled so and it's different I'm limited so what I am do here saying is that

Will not limit what we assumed to be 4000 series CPUs whatever they're called and their features but if those CPUs have features that are not supported on the 400 series boards for one reason or another then they won't be there not

Because they're blocked but because they for one reason or another don't work they didn't validate they don't have some kind of physical Hardware in place whatever so if the 450s export 70 boards are in congruent with the new CPU

Features on zone three they won't be present and for example PBO is present on 400 series 500 to use boards you won't find some features like that that are newer was n 2 on the oldest 300 series boards even if it's supported

With a beta bios which is kind of how that rolled out – so we may see something similar was n 3 where new features are bios driven at launch but don't come on the older boards and that doesn't mean they're blocked but it

Doesn't mean they won't work so it's just we don't know what those are at this point and then final question we have at least written down for now will the 500 series support ddr4 ddr5 splits so this came up because someone said

That the phrasing Andy used about how this will be the last platform or the last architecture that is supported on this platform is n3 end of the road for B 450 export 70 after this no more updates the question was in the writing

That AMD had following that of it you'll need a new motherboard going forward does that mean d4 d5 splits so officially am4 is in use until ddr5 is available one of them these former representatives who worked there back in

2017 and 2016 actually when we were talking in for told us that that was the record answer on record answer four years ago ddr5 is what's going to dictate our next socket move so as per Andy's official answer today we asked in

Relation to your statement just released is there any implication behind the wording years – about a d5 support and they said there's no implication behind it it is firmly that this is the end of the road for the 400 series boards don't

Complain about it not supporting anything else in the future if there's as n 3 + if there's a half step it might not be supported and they're basically saying at this point you're aware of that

And don't come back to us complaining so that's kind of where and these position and as some of that is my extrapolation of the answer but you get the idea so there will be no support beyond n3 there Xan three might not be the end of the

Line for x5 70 or B 550 that's not confirmed yet there could be something else there could be as n3 plus maybe there's a delay because of human malware that causes a need to have to stretch the timeline on ddr5 support which is

Currently on roadmap for 2022 if that's the case that might work on XY 7 if you have a 50 not the 400 series boards but there's no explicit statement on that as far as 400 is concerns n3 is it and x5 so many no commitment as of right now so

That'll wrap it up then this story line is mostly closed the one outstanding thing that we might have to come back and do a revisit on is once these updates start rolling out how well are they supported by the motherboard

Manufacturers and it'll be tough to figure out who deserves the criticism at that point is it the community for asking for something and then it's buggy even though it wasn't provided is the motherboard manufacturers for providing

Something now that is optional but they're not gonna support it fully maybe it's their fault for doing that or is it AMD for backpedaling and we'll just have to look at it board by board basis but hopefully everything works properly

It sounds like by strictly disallowing going backwards by strictly stating that not all the CVS are going to be supported it sounds like Andy might be sidestepping hopefully a lot of the headaches that would have emerged from

Usability issues and from the wider market outside of enthusiasts but we're going to keep an eye on it obviously and we'll do testing once this starts stuff starts rolling out as for one that's going to happen and he says that it's up

To the motherboard manufacturers Andy has not presently provided the code to them but it is working on it and then it'll be up to do the boards want to update for the Xen 3 launch before it after whatever and further this is going

To be a situation where probably one manufacturer does it and then they all start doing it because as a marketing point they look weak if they don't so you're probably gonna see a MSI really aggressive on this they're the ones who

Wanted this change the most they were pushing Andy and constantly pushing anything for the last few days to try and get this out there for reasons we explained previously Asus was the least on board orig

But if everyone else is doing it they'll probably do it too so that's it for this one thanks for watching and subscribe for more as always go check out the previous video at least and if you want to see the marketing side and why Andy

Really screwed this up and got themselves into the trouble they did watch part 1 we talked about that for the first half there and subscribe for more we go to store documents net or patreon.com slash gamers nexus to

Support us directly we'll see you all next time

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